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  #1  
Old 25th May 2010, 05:22 AM
Dingo Dingo is offline
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Default Torso Rotation (before and after x-rays)

An 11 year old girl (now 12) began torso rotation strength training approximately 1 year ago. Late today her mother e-mailed me the before and after x-rays. I put them together into one picture. This one is worth 1,000 words.

Before and after x-rays (1 year)

Here is the Torso Rotation Strength Training thread on NSF.

I put one on here but I think it cycled off at some point.
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  #2  
Old 25th May 2010, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Torso Rotation (before and after x-rays)

does it only work on smalll curves?
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Old 25th May 2010, 06:37 PM
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Default Re: Torso Rotation (before and after x-rays)

I was wondering that too. I wonder how well it would work on a 40 or 50 something degree curve? Any idea about this Dingo? I would be interested to hear. Lu
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Old 25th May 2010, 07:10 PM
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Default Re: Torso Rotation (before and after x-rays)

I know of one other scoliosis patient who tried this, a girl in her teens with a much larger curve. Despite being very diligent about doing the exercises, her curve progressed and she ended up having surgery. However, Dingo feels that the fact that she was using a torso rotation machine that couldn't lock her pelvis in position may have had some bearing on this. She was also wearing the Spinecor brace at the same time, and there's no way to know if this made any difference to the outcome of the exercises, whether the Spinecor negatively affected the outcome of the Torso Rotations or vice-versa.
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37 years old, diagnosed with infantile idiopathic scoliosis at 6 months old with curves of 62(T) and 40(L) degrees. Casting and Milwaukee braces until surgery at 10 - ant release/pos fusion T1-T12, halo traction. Post op cast and then TLSO. Further surgery at 18 (ant release/pos fusion extended to L3 to include lumbar curve, costoplasty) and 25 (another costoplasty). Fusion extended to L4 at 33 (XLIF with 4 pedicle screws and two short rods). Pre-op curves: 76(T) and 70(L). Post-op curves: 45(T) and 35(L). Diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome aged 34; scoliosis almost certainly due to this rather than being idiopathic.
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Old 25th May 2010, 10:28 PM
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Default Re: Torso Rotation (before and after x-rays)

does it work on Scheuermann's kyphotic wedges in the vertebra
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Old 26th May 2010, 12:55 AM
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Default Re: Torso Rotation (before and after x-rays)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark View Post
does it work on Scheuermann's kyphotic wedges in the vertebra
That's a good question, Mark. Let me see if Kevin (the research on the NSF forums who's been involved with this research) knows about that.
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Old 26th May 2010, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: Torso Rotation (before and after x-rays)

As for which curves it works on check page 4 of this study.

It lists a series of curves and the results after a few months of therapy.

Dr. Kevin McIntire mentioned that it is probably most effective on curves less than 35 degrees for mechanical reasons. That's not meant to imply that it won't work on larger curves.
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Old 26th May 2010, 02:14 AM
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Default Re: Torso Rotation (before and after x-rays)

Are right Dingo, so i guess it would not be much use for my 100 degree kyphotic curve


The reason i asked was with Schueremanns the vetrbra are wedge shaped so its not like it is a normal spine that is curved its the vetrebra that are actually deformed

http://www.iol.ie/~rcsiorth/journal/...issue1/sch.htm

Shows good examples of the wedges

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Old 26th May 2010, 02:16 AM
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Default Re: Torso Rotation (before and after x-rays)

By the way, sorry for all the questions dingo

How does this machine thingy work with spines that are fused, i'm just wondering because my surgeon got me down to around 60 degree but if i was looking for an improvement how would it work

Cheers mate

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Old 26th May 2010, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: Torso Rotation (before and after x-rays)

Your study doesn not mention kyphosis

Do you have any data on kyphosis or is it not really meant for us kyphotics
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Old 26th May 2010, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: Torso Rotation (before and after x-rays)

I'm not sure the same muscles are responsible for holding the spine side to side as those that hold it back to front. My son has both scoliosis and kyphosis, but so far I've only seen exercise research on the scoliosis part of it.
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Old 26th May 2010, 02:44 AM
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Default Re: Torso Rotation (before and after x-rays)

Mark

I believe this kind of PT is only effective for kids who are still growing. For adults, I'm not so sure.
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Old 26th May 2010, 03:04 AM
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Default Re: Torso Rotation (before and after x-rays)

Are right sorry Dingo, is that because in the young the spine is still developing, that makes some sense now

thanks for the explanation

Long may it keep helping your son stay away from surgery too

Mark

ps, i might try some of the excuses myself when my spine heals, i need to work my six pack, its kind of been enshrouded in a large blanket if you know what i mean
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Old 26th May 2010, 03:07 AM
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Default Re: Torso Rotation (before and after x-rays)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hduggan View Post
I'm not sure the same muscles are responsible for holding the spine side to side as those that hold it back to front. My son has both scoliosis and kyphosis, but so far I've only seen exercise research on the scoliosis part of it.
Hi Yes i agree

we see lots of research and exercise for the muscles that effect the muscles in a lateral curve but we see little in relation to the muscle structure of a kyphotic.

I guess its even worse when you suffer both scoliosis and kyphosis becasue you don't really know what to do for the best

One exercise may be complelty wrong for the other, i guess that is a very confusing situation to deal with

Lots of hugs to you and your family

Mark


Dingo what do your sons curve measure now, sorry if you have already answered this

peace and love to your family too

Mark
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Old 26th May 2010, 05:57 AM
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Default Re: Torso Rotation (before and after x-rays)

Dingo's son has a curve of around 10 degrees, similar to the child in the x-ray. NB if the curve were any smaller he would be classed as having a normal spine, as nearly everyone has a small degree of curvature in their spines and no-one is dead straight. Curves are only classed as scoliosis when they reach 10 degrees. There is also generally said to be a 5 degree margin of error when measuring curves.

It is impossible to know if Dingo's son's curve would progress, stay the same, or actually decrease (which can happen with minimal curves in young children his age) whether or not he did this exercise. I believe Dingo is doing this as a form of insurance to try to make absolutely sure that he does not progress, is that right Dingo?

Also Dingo, is your son using the torso-rotation machine yet, or is he still too little? Is he able to satisfactorily lock his pelvis whilst he does the exercises, as you said that it was the inability to do this that probably caused the girl we knew to fail?
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37 years old, diagnosed with infantile idiopathic scoliosis at 6 months old with curves of 62(T) and 40(L) degrees. Casting and Milwaukee braces until surgery at 10 - ant release/pos fusion T1-T12, halo traction. Post op cast and then TLSO. Further surgery at 18 (ant release/pos fusion extended to L3 to include lumbar curve, costoplasty) and 25 (another costoplasty). Fusion extended to L4 at 33 (XLIF with 4 pedicle screws and two short rods). Pre-op curves: 76(T) and 70(L). Post-op curves: 45(T) and 35(L). Diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome aged 34; scoliosis almost certainly due to this rather than being idiopathic.
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