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View Full Version : Why I am happy with Spinecor


Sealy
26th July 2009, 02:08 PM
~~~Some attacks have been leveled against the Spinecor brace! Some of you might be aware that my daughter was diagnosed with Infantile idiopathic scoliosis at the age of 19 months with a 60 degree curve and was placed in serial casts for 3 Ĺ years until the age of 5 at which point she went into the Spinecor brace.

We took a leap of faith and went against the current independent literature of the time which in a roundabout way implied that the Spinecor was a hoax and that the developers of the brace had financial motives and were trying to deceive the public with their studies which showed remarkable results.
My daughter, along with many children with infantile and juvenile scoliosis have been treated in Montreal by the inventors of the brace and I can say from personal experience and reading the experiences of others with juvenile and infantile scoliosis in other forums, that the brace is not a hoax and has been a godsend for many of us!

My daughter would have faced 10 or more years in a Milwaukee brace with possible further deterioration and premature fusion due to compliance issues with wearing a rigid brace. I am delighted to report that her curve has remained stable at about 2 degrees for the past 4 years! Her quality of life, given the initial diagnosis is remarkable and nothing short of a miracle.

I've developed my own theory as to why most orthopaedics are dead set against the Spinecor. If the Spinecor should actually work (as it is for many of us ) it would mean that the corporate dollars that are currently funding non fusion surgery research (which is huge!!!!) and is being targeted at juvenile scoliosis in case anyone doesn't know, will go to waste!

Mention was made about the Wong Study which cast doubt on the Spinecor results. Dr. Rivard issued a swift rebuttal to that study. I have no reason to doubt his integrity. He sincerely cares about the welfare of all the children he treats.

tonibunny
27th July 2009, 12:18 PM
Hey Sealy,

Obviously you already know that I'm really happy for Deirdre, it is brilliant that her curve has been corrected and is holding at 2 degrees :D I have some things I've been wondering about, hope you don't mind me asking them?

I was under the impression that it was the serial casting that corrected Deirdre's curve down to 2 degrees, and that you have simply been using the Spinecor as a "safety belt"? Many other children who have been serially cast successfully don't wear braces once the casts have done their job, and in most cases their curves don't progress.

I'm also curious that you feel she would have worn a Milwaukee? They are so rarely used now, and only for kyphosis/very high thoracic curves. Do you mean a traditional style Milwaukee rather than a new-style low profile one? If the Spinecor works for Dierdre then a TLSO would have worked - it seems that she doesn't need a brace with a neck extension.

Personally I would have done exactly the same as you if Deirdre was my child though - I'd be nervous about her curve returning so I'd have her wear the Spinecor (which as you say is much easier to tolerate than a hard brace) just as extra insurance against the curve returning, and continue to have her monitored. It seems like the most sensible course of action to me :)

Toni xx

Sealy
27th July 2009, 12:37 PM
Hey Sealy,

I was under the impression that it was the serial casting that corrected Deirdre's curve down to 2 degrees, and that you have simply been using the Spinecor as a "safety belt"? Many other children who have been serially cast successfully don't wear braces once the casts have done their job, and in most cases their curves don't progress.

Toni xx

Hi Toni,

Thank you for your kind words and the support as always :squeeze: Deirdre's curve was very severe when she went into serial casts. By the time dr. Hedden placed her in her first cast, her curve had already progressed to 68 degrees from the initial diagnosis. When she came out of the casts, her spine looked beautiful and I believe there are pictures on the net somewhere. By the time we got to Montreal, her curve was about 20 degrees. Dr. Rivard told me that given her age and the degree of curvature, that her little spine would continue to progress as she got older. I have no reason to doubt his professional evaluation and judgement because the doctors at Sick Kids felt the same way.

RugbyLaura
27th July 2009, 03:33 PM
I'm also curious that you feel she would have worn a Milwaukee? They are so rarely used now, and only for kyphosis/very high thoracic curves. Do you mean a traditional style Milwaukee rather than a new-style low profile one? If the Spinecor works for Dierdre then a TLSO would have worked - it seems that she doesn't need a brace with a neck extension.



Hi All,

I have been skirting the scoliosis sites for a while - some might say, burying my head in the sand :). I returned from holiday and was lead by Sharon's signature on the NSF back to this wonderful site :luv:. Have now spent a whole morning attempting to catch up...

Anyway, re the above, Mr Marks was also talking of putting Immi in a Milwaukee 2 1/2 years ago because of the high position of her curve. He eventually (and I mean eventually >:|) went for a standard TLSO which, due to the length and position of the curve, had to go so far up that it was imposible to hide with clothing.

As some may know, we opted for the Spinecor brace, which has been really good so far.

There are times, though, when I wonder whether the Milwaukee would have been the best option - particularly given Immi's most recent appointment.

Who knows??

Not me.

Laura xx

Pancake
27th July 2009, 06:19 PM
Hey Laura!

Did you see this thread I started on NSF about JIS?

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9148

Note especially post #8 where Gayle makes some sense squaring what is known with what is stated on the blog.

Best regards,
sharon

mark
27th July 2009, 06:46 PM
Wow thats interesting and refreshing to read Pancake, a surgeon, who we are told or led to believe are money grabbing corporate conglomorates actually saying 90% will not need surgery. He looks a right nice guy into the bargain

Sealy
27th July 2009, 06:48 PM
Did you see this thread I started on NSF about JIS?

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9148

Note especially post #8 where Gayle makes some sense squaring what is known with what is stated on the blog.



According to Min Mehta, a world renowned orthopaedic surgeon who has treated numerous children diagnosed with infantile idiopathic scoliosis, the vast majority of resolving cases of infantile idiopathic scoliosis; which is a rare condition to begin with, takes anywhere from 18 to 24 months to resolve on its own! Therefore I find dr. Hey's comments that the majority of children he sees in the 5 - 7 year range resolving and not needing further treatment rather disturbing considering that the Scoliosis Research Society states on its website that 95% of juvenile cases eventually require surgery! When one considers that children are not normally referred to orthopaedic surgeons until the curves are already in the moderate to advanced stages then dr. Hey's comments becomes even more ludicrous!!!

Pancake,

I started a separate thread on the article you referenced in the "Big Debate" It's right here:

http://www.scoliosis-support.org/showthread.php?t=8048


Amazing Disappearing Scoliosis

Assessment of Curve progression in Idiopathic Scoliosis
P. N. Soucacos


Arguments from personal incredulity are not evidence.

I posted some statistics I found from a large screening of ~14,000 kids as I recall where a surprising number spontaneous showed halting of progression and about 10% as I recall corrected completely spontaneously. It's on the NSF site for folks interested.

Science is the ONLY way of knowing anything. Data. Evidence.

I had the opportunity a few months ago, to read that study! It wasn't 14,000 children but rather a pool of 85,622 children. The article is available in the Infantile Juvenile Scoliosis Support group in case anyone wants to read it.


My laymom’s interpretation of that study is that 1,436 children were identified with scoliosis. These were children with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis. Curves that were treated with a brace, progressed to surgery or did not meet the criteria, were excluded from the study so that left 839 children that met the parameters for the study; which basically meant looking at the behavior of small curves that were for the most part below 20 degrees and therefore did not require treatment. Unlike the U.S. Ethics Committee, the Ethics Committee in Greece would never allow a control group! Children who progressed in the study were promptly treated!!!!!

These children were followed over a period of 3.2 years. There were only 102 patients with initial curves above 20 degrees that met the criteria for the study. The 27 children with curves above 30 degrees were seen twice and then eliminated from the study because they required treatment.

Basically,what the study is saying is that curves under 20 degrees for the most part do not progress and some small curves ~ 12 degrees average can spontaneously resolve! Curves under 20 degrees are normally not treated because the chance of progression is something like 15%. The authors found that 14.7% progressed. I think its important to clarify any misunderstandings.

Words to live by:

Normally, I would never point out someone getting (data) wrong. But in your particular case, it is of a piece with a casual, untrained approach to the literature that is common among lay folks.

Pancake
27th July 2009, 06:56 PM
Wow thats interesting and refreshing to read Pancake, a surgeon, who we are told or led to believe are money grabbing corporate conglomorates actually saying 90% will not need surgery. He looks a right nice guy into the bargain

I find the suggestion that ALL orthopedic surgeons who do surgery necessarily don't give crap about their patients, think nothing of performing unnecessary surgery, have a casual disregard for malpractice, and only care about money beneath contempt.

I don't think that charge is worthy of any notice and is obviously ignorant and irrational.

All I can say is try to get your kid scheduled for surgery with a top guy when there is no school. Good luck. Those guys have more cases than they need.

Again, if you get your "information" from SOSORT and others of that ilk who are faith-driven as opposed to evidence-driven, you are going to be repeating ignorant nonsense as we have seen.

mark
27th July 2009, 07:14 PM
All I can say is try to get your kid scheduled for surgery with a top guy when there is no school. Good luck. Those guys have more cases than they need.

How prophetic you are, my new surgeon has told me he can not do till September because he has parents wanting surgeries to be done in the school holidays. It seems that it doesn't go on need it goes parents wanting and insisting kids are done in the holidays

I may come accross as being sore and i do understand schooling is important but i've been waiting 20 years for my surgery, i'm in just as much pain and discomfort

Sorry for the rant to all parents who read this but that is just my opinion and if you need to have a look at my pictures and my thraed in the kyphosis forum and you'll see why i feel the way i do

Pancake
27th July 2009, 07:22 PM
Mark, don't they have surgeons who only work on adults there?

I agree that's not right to bump you for a kid not wanting to miss school when you have been waiting so long..

Here in the states, even the guys who only work on kids have a very full dance card. That's why when I see someone make the charge that these guys are malpracticing idiots who don't give a crap about patients and who blithely do thousands of unnecessary surgeries to be reprehensible.

The surgeon who fused my daughert SAVED HER LIFE. I am forever in his debt. He is an artist and a gentleman. People who say he is otherwise are ignorant as all get out and mean-sprited to boot. It is impossible to overstate that. These surgeons are the GOOD GUYS.

mark
27th July 2009, 07:27 PM
Hi Sharon, no, i was lucky i found a surgeon who would operate on an adult, i actively sought out such a perswon, but unfortunately they have private practices too, so someone who pays gets in before the NHS patient does, thats just a fact of the UKs wonderful surgical lottery, if you have 30 thousand pounds you get the operation tomorrow, if you don't you wait in line.

Nothing against my surgeon, he has a waiting list that i can't do anything about, it just upsets me that if i had the money i could get myself to the top of the list, so its privates first, kids next, adults are the bottom feeders.

Mind you if you get me on the money grabbing charlatons who peddle conservative treatments for adults at 4 and a half grand i will get very angry, peddling false hope to some one with a rigid 100 degree curve needs to take a long hard look at there selves in the mirror

Pancake
27th July 2009, 07:33 PM
Oh geez Mark! I obviously have no clue how they do things in the UK.

Once they give you a date, can they keep bumping you?

Damn.

mark
27th July 2009, 07:34 PM
The surgeon who fused my daughert SAVED HER LIFE. I am forever in his debt. He is an artist and a gentleman. People who say he is otherwise are ignorant as all get out and mean-sprited to boot. It is impossible to overstate that. These surgeons are the GOOD GUYS.

Here, here Sharon, i can completly relate to the elation you feel for him. Once i'm done and fixed i'm going to take my surgeon out for a bloody big glass of beer and depending on the correction a *bag of pork scratchings* (English joke)

Lovely to read surgical intervention works Sharon

mark
27th July 2009, 07:36 PM
Oh geez Mark! I obviously have no clue how they do things in the UK.

Once they give you a date, can they keep bumping you?

Damn.

Nah the hardest part is getting the date, once that is set you can pretty much put your morgage on the date being the one they do you on

Like i say its getting the date that is the holy (in big inverted commas) grail

Pancake
27th July 2009, 07:51 PM
Here, here Sharon, i can completly relate to the elation you feel for him. Once i'm done and fixed i'm going to take my surgeon out for a bloody big glass of beer and depending on the correction a *bag of pork scratchings* (English joke)

I predict that is exactly how you will feel once you are recovered.

Lovely to read surgical intervention works Sharon

Not only does surgical intervention work but it is the ONLY treatment modality that has a good evidential track record of working and remains the ONLY permanent solution to date.

mark
27th July 2009, 07:59 PM
Not only does surgical intervention work but it is the ONLY treatment modality that has a good evidential track record of working and remains the ONLY permanent solution to date.

From my experiences you hit the nail right on the head

titch
27th July 2009, 08:13 PM
I think - and this is as someone who gets steamed up at the stuff suggesting that all surgeons are money grubbers who don't give a damn - that we do nevertheless need to draw a line between the top surgeons, who would have full books even if 90% of people with AIS who go on to have surgery were instead fixed conservatively, and the more run of the mill surgeons. While I feel the majority of them are also people doing their best, there are also ones who are rather more eager than they should be. They're also less likely to have truly great results because they are more likely to be one trick ponies who fit the patient (however well or poorly) to the surgery, rather than the surgery to the patient. I also believe very firmly that people who also do hips, knees or miscellaneous other orthopaedic surgeries simply should not be allowed anywhere near a spine!

I think we should also be aware that orthopaedics is inherently very conservative, and a lot don't like change. Having said that, I also wonder where on earth the surgeons are supposed to find the time to be testing conservative alternatives? They aren't the ones devising them (and that typically includes braces as well - yes, they may be designed by doctors, but biomedical specialists rather than surgeons) - yet the claim levelled by the anti-surgeons seems to be that they are offering no alternatives. I think it is valid to ask them to be open to working with orthotists, so that they refer patients as appropriate, but they are neither designing nor the ones who will be single handedly studying the effects of other treatments. It's largely up to those who are designing the treatments, especially those which are not involved in any way with hospitals or other medical edifices, to do the studies which show that they work. If the show enough promise, then across here the NHS wil get people trained to do studies of their own, but the first step has to come from the other side.

RugbyLaura
27th July 2009, 09:56 PM
Hey Laura!

Did you see this thread I started on NSF about JIS?

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9148

Note especially post #8 where Gayle makes some sense squaring what is known with what is stated on the blog.

Best regards,
sharon

Hi Sharon,

Yes, I've seen this and other posts on the same issue. I have to say, like Celia, that this goes against everything I've heard before. I pray that it's true - but then as a non-believer I don't expect much success from my prayers!

Honestly - the more I read, the more my head spins these days. Much of the information 'out there' seems to be contradictory and confusing.

Our next appointment (Aug 7th) should be interesting as Immi has been wearing her brace for an average of 12 hours per day for the last 2 months (prescribed hours are 20). Hmmmnnn, we have our own mini-study going on...

Will her curve stay the same/get better??? Spontaneous correction! Yay!!

Worsen a little??? Oh well, back up to 20 hours :(

Worsen considerably???????? Sh*t! Irresponsible parenting (but she's had a GREAT few months! Dance show, Sailing course, wearing a skirt to school!! She feels it was worth it!)

Celia, sorry to ramble on on your thread - I have vast amounts of respect and affection for you, plus enormous gratitude to you, Gerbo, Michelle, et al for introducing us to Spinecor - without it our lives would have been considerably more trying during the last 2 years.

xxx

Sealy
27th July 2009, 10:09 PM
Celia, sorry to ramble on on your thread - I have vast amounts of respect and affection for you, plus enormous gratitude to you, Gerbo, Michelle, et al for introducing us to Spinecor - without it our lives would have been considerably more trying during the last 2 years.xxx

Laura, feel free to ramble any time you like :squeeze: I was trying to get Christine and other to post their wonderful results with the Spinecor but some of them shy away from the confrontational aspect that has occurred on the NSF forums.

LeahsMum
4th August 2009, 07:40 AM
I've been reading these forums for a while now and as yet haven't posted here before but this topic grabbed my attention. My daughter is 7 years old and has been in the SpineCor brace for the last 7 months. She started at 28 degrees and at last xray was holding at 7 degrees. So while we're only at the beginning of her treatment I have to agree that I too am extremely happy with the brace. As for how the brace will go in the future only time will tell, but for us at the moment it's working better than we had anticipated, and giving her the quality of life that we want her to have.

mark
4th August 2009, 07:54 AM
Hi Leahs Mum, thats great news, welcome to SSO, its really pleasing to read positive reports about any conservative treatment, long may it continue and your daughters curves remain around the 7 degree mark

Once again welcome to SSO

Mark

Rachie
4th August 2009, 10:59 AM
I'm also curious that you feel she would have worn a Milwaukee? They are so rarely used now, and only for kyphosis/very high thoracic curves.

Just to say when we saw Mr Noordeen 2.5 years ago re Maddy's curve (76 degrees) his alternative to growth rods was a combination of milwaukee brace and "aggressive" plaster casting. So it is still used, although she does have a high thoracic curve - just like you said.

I'm wondering what surgeons in the UK think of the Spinecor brace, seeing as they are not paid per surgery.

Rachie x

Christine2
4th August 2009, 06:39 PM
I am kind of new here, I have been reading but not posting. Finding the time to do so is hard. The balance between family, a small business, taking care of my mother and scoliosis is difficult. So hello to all.

My family is VERY happy with Spinecor. I don't know what the future will bring but all is "good" right now.(see signature) We have been on this journey for 3 yrs now. The advancements that I have seen in only that short period of time are big.

My long term plan is as follows. Keep my daughters curve as small as possible in hopes that it either stays there or there is a "break through". If we can keep it below 20* through the major growth spurt we are golden. If not than the surgical procedures will be even more advanced.

concerned dad
21st August 2009, 01:50 PM
For balance, someone should post a thread entitled why I am NOT happy with the Spinecor.

I am not ready to do so yet, but may soon. But let me just ask: Are there ANY forum participants who have successfully braced their child with the SpineCor through their major growth spurt? I asked this on the other forum and did not receive any positive responses.

It seems that there ARE many participants who were unsuccessful through the growth spurt.

I've read every single paper I could find on the SpineCor. They all make it sound promising but were mostly written by the inventors. Two, written by independent researchers were damning (Weiss and Wong).

No doubt, there are several folks here who have success with the SpineCor when used on young children. I fervently hope that they continue to enjoy success. It seems like a worthwhile thing to try for immature children. It may put them in a better position of starting their growth spurt with a reduced curve amplitude.

However, I would not give it a shot for a 12 year old Risser 0 kid with an advancing curve of say 25 degrees or above.

Just my 2 cents and just offering a contrary voice for balance.

And, my new mantra for those being treated with the SpineCor is "Get copies of your kids xrays and have them read by an independent physician".

titch
21st August 2009, 05:45 PM
I don't have any personal experience of the brace, so cannot speak from that. What I did want to say is that it actually does not surprise me if poorer results are got by others, because it is usually the inventors who know best how to apply a particular procedure or device. For example, after pedicle screws first went into mass usage at the end of the last century, there were suddenly vast amounts of failures, because they were poorly applied, and also applied in cases where they were inappropriate. As they became better understood, and after a period of reduced use, this stopped happening, and they gradually went back into wider usage again and are still now the gold standard for treatment of a wide variety of spine problems which require surgery.

I have also long since reached the conclusion that (hard) bracing and casting is an art form! The Cheneau brace is widely publicised as being little short of a miracle, yet we've finally heard a dissenting voice here on this forum. Interestingly though, that brace was not made by the originator. We've also had parents with children undergoing serial casting who have had a major preference for specific orthotists because those orthotists have consistently managed to achieve a very significant curve reduction in cast, where other orthotists have only managed a much more modest reduction. I'd LOVE to know why there is such disparity in results, as it would be to everyone's benefit - while some of it undoubtedly comes down to a "knack", the same as in any field or specialism, I'm sure that another part of it must be down to differences in application which could be taught.

In any case, it does seem to me that the jury is out on SpineCor in terms of certain populations. However, what I would also say is that as it stands, personally I think I *would* give it a go in the circumstances you describe. In those circumstances, no intervention means almost definite surgery - if SpineCor is unable to prevent the need for surgery that can be seen as a failure, but if it is able to put off the need for surgery until closer to skeletal maturity, maintain the flexibility of the spine and potentially allow a shorter fusion, then to me those things are all a success. Perhaps not the massive success that is currently hoped for, but nevertheless a very valuable thing. I hope that it all becomes more clear in the coming years.

Pancake
21st August 2009, 06:18 PM
Well first, it's nice to see a post from CD. It's been a while.

Second, while FixScoliosis's site is normally a reliable source of wacky, pseudoscientific claims, misinformation, blind leading the blind leading the naked commentary, and Emily Litella moments, I did find a post that is useful...

http://www.fixscoliosis.com/forum/f12/spinecor-vs-rigid-brace-102/#post301

Here, Dr. Wong, lead author of one of the studies that could not replicate the glowing results of the studies done by the Spinecor inventors, responds to the charge of lack of adequate training in Spinecor fitting...

"Thanks for your email. This discussion has been brought up again and again.

Our study team got more than 5 years of experience for using SpineCor from intensive training in St Justine Hospital (3 team members were granted with the training certificates) to real practice and then quitted the prescription. Our names not being listed in the relevant website recently is with an apparent reason.

In our randomized controlled trial study, we followed the treatment protocol suggested by the inventor of SpineCor. Honestly speaking, our team did hope SpineCor works.... We published and shared our experience of using SpineCor with others but some "practitioners" might think our team did something wrong without further considering the actual mechanism of SpineCor and the patients' compliance and acceptance - it is not a fair, objective and unbiased comment. Definitely, we shared our own experience through publications and it does not mean every researcher / practitioner will have the same experience as ours. Anyway, I am looking forward to seeing new developments of SpineCor including more randomized controlled trial studies in particular from the independent bodies / institutions like our team."

Fix's site is also a hangout for one of our "favorite" chiro's... Stitzel. :D

There is a link in that thread or another one in that area of the forum to a TV segment presented somewhere in Asia, perhaps Singapore where Fix (Kalla, another chiro) lives, which is pretty amusing. Both Stitzel and Kalla appear in the clip and are being interviewed. At one point, Stitzel claims his modified power tool (literally), perhaps in association with CLEAR, can cure scoliosis.

I ask the jury...

Pancake
21st August 2009, 06:20 PM
In re Spinecor, I agree any hope of it working seems to rest with the JIS crowd, NOT the AIS crowd.

There is a reason the inventors' papers are dismissed as overly rosy and not believed by experienced orthopedic surgeons.

Sealy
23rd August 2009, 03:06 AM
In re Spinecor, I agree any hope of it working seems to rest with the JIS crowd, NOT the AIS crowd.

There is a reason the inventors' papers are dismissed as overly rosy and not believed by experienced orthopedic surgeons.

You of course are privy to some inside or higher level knowledge that the rest of us fail to grasp? :p Save your crystal ball predictions for the psychics or paranormals.

Sealy
23rd August 2009, 03:51 AM
I am not ready to do so yet, but may soon. But let me just ask: Are there ANY forum participants who have successfully braced their child with the SpineCor through their major growth spurt? I asked this on the other forum and did not receive any positive responses.

I personally know of one mom whose daughter has been successfully treated through the adolescent growth spurt and that's Pat from the NSF. This of course is not an exhaustive list of all the children who have been successfully treated with the Spinecor through the adolescent growth spurt. I'm also aware of independent studies that corroborate the inventor's 'optimistic' or 'rosy' results.

I find it odd how you and Pancake/Pooka take pleasure in bad mouthing Dr. Weiss on the NSF and go so far as to say that he belongs on the Quack Watch List and yet you include Dr. Weiss as a reputable/trustworthy doctor whose opinions should be trusted when it comes to refuting the Spinecor?????

The only shams around here are those who have no experience with the Spinecor brace or bracing for that matter and try to discourage parents. I have seen a few posts where you or Pancake have encouraged parents to give vertebral stapling a try. Kind of odd don't you think?

Pancake
23rd August 2009, 04:18 AM
You of course are privy to some inside or higher level knowledge that the rest of us fail to grasp? :p Save your crystal ball predictions for the psychics or paranormals.

What crust! And how ironic!

YOU are the one who is being non-scientific, continuing your unbroken record on this score.

You have failed to grasp the literature. Again.

You seem to think a comment you, LAY PERSON, heard at a scientific conference a few years ago that HAS NEVER BEEN SUBSEQUENTLY PUBLISHED BY THAT RESEARCHER OR ANY OTHER RESEARCHER is fit for repeating to innocent people looking for correct information. You are reckless.

YOU, on your yahoo group, mischaracterize everything I have ever said. There are two choices here... you either do NOT understand what I said or you are lying about it. You pick which one. Just like creationists have to pick between ONLY those two options because their position is also counterfactual.

Ask you daughter's surgeon if the Spinecor inventor's papers are widely accepted and why or why not. Don't take my word for it. And you need all the clairvoyance and paranormal spirit energy (not that I am admitting that nonsense exists but I'll bet you do)... I need none.

Pancake
23rd August 2009, 04:22 AM
I don't mean to put too fine a point on this but how did you do in grade school science?

By the way, normally I would NEVER bring up this point with anyone ABSENT them continually posting ignorant nonsense. You don't appreciate the scope of material you don't seem to understand based on your posted material.

I think you are doing the best you can.

I can SHOW you (and your buddy on your yahoo group) are misleading people as to the science.

Pancake
23rd August 2009, 05:12 AM
I find it odd how

You should consider that the REASON you find things odd might be your lack of understanding the issues.

titch
23rd August 2009, 09:36 AM
Enough of this bun fight, or I'll be back to locking threads.

Sealy
23rd August 2009, 11:05 AM
You seem to think a comment you, LAY PERSON, heard at a scientific conference a few years ago that HAS NEVER BEEN SUBSEQUENTLY PUBLISHED BY THAT RESEARCHER OR ANY OTHER RESEARCHER is fit for repeating to innocent people looking for correct information. You are reckless.

It’s unfortunate that the SRS webcasts are no longer available to the public because I find some of the most revealing information can be gleaned from listening to orthopaedics talk! I find that if you let people talk long enough, sooner or later some pertinent key information is leaked.

I don't believe that my one comment about VBS that you take issue with re: all children who undergo vertebral stapling may one day require spinal fusion - is so far out field, when one considers that VBS leads to disc degeneration and it has been scientifically proven by dr. Braun!

Sealy
23rd August 2009, 11:07 AM
I can SHOW you (and your buddy on your yahoo group) are misleading people as to the science.

I'm sure you could teach me a lot!!! :D

Pancake
23rd August 2009, 03:08 PM
Itís unfortunate that the SRS webcasts are no longer available to the public because I find some of the most revealing information can be gleaned from listening to orthopaedics talk! I find that if you let people talk long enough, sooner or later some pertinent key information is leaked.

This is insane conspiracy theory, NOT science.

I have attended any number of science conferences and presented several times. What you obviously don't realize is how little of that sometimes gets past peer review and into print.

That statement you constantly repeat about VBS is COUNTERFACTUAL even if someone working with iatrogenically-induced scoliosis in goats uttered it in public at a scientific meeting. This is very basic.

It is counter to the everything known to be said and printed by the developers of the procedure and there is no evidence the original statement you repeat is true, even if was actually uttered and I doubt that.

I understand you are scared and have no science background.

I understand you desperately want to understand but don't have the training.

All this is obvious.

I am telling you that if you don't understand even basic stuff like the need for controlled trials then you will necessarily be misleading people in a blind leading the blind manner as you have done on at least three fora that I know of.

And very "mature" and "adult" of you to call me "Kooka" in reference to my screen name on NSF (Pooka) and to use the tongue sticking out face in this thread. I think you are incapable of discussing and understaning this material and behaving rationally.

Pancake
23rd August 2009, 03:09 PM
I'm sure you could teach me a lot!!! :D

If you don't have a basic background in science (which you clearly don't) then you will never learn.

Sealy
23rd August 2009, 03:22 PM
By the way, I refuse to have a discussion with someone who sounds like a stark raving lunatic! Honestly, it reads like you're foaming at the mouth!

Now let me see....If I recall correctly the discusion at the SRS meeting went something like this: ( Dr. Braun had just finished presenting his results of VBS on goats)

Doctor A states flatly: 'So the best thing is to fuse these children, Right?'

Doctor Braun: 'Well hold on, hold on..,' puts fingertips together and gazes reflectively on a spot on the ceiling, 'we can't say for sure, let's wait and see....'

Pancake
23rd August 2009, 04:07 PM
By the way, I refuse to have a discussion with someone who sounds like a stark raving lunatic! Honestly, it reads like you're foaming at the mouth!

Now let me see....If I recall correctly the discussion at the SRS meeting went something like this: ( Dr. Braun had just finished presenting his results of VBS on goats)

Doctor A states flatly: 'So the best thing is to fuse these children, Right?'

Doctor Braun: 'Well hold on, hold on..,' puts fingertips together and gazes reflectively on a spot on the ceiling, 'we can't say for sure, let's wait and see....'

Do you understand why it is irresponsible to make the statement you did based on ANYTHING uttered at a meeting?

I don't think you do.

This guy was working with iatrogenically-induced scoliosis in goats and was asked to EXTRAPOLATE that to humans based on no known knowledge of humans. Moreover, there is no publication showing that his opinion on this would even be close to correct.

Last, your conclusion from this exchange that all VBS procedures are expected to need fusion is COUNTERFACTUAL. There is no evidence at all from anyone who is doing these procedures that they even suspect fusion is required in most cases.

The aim of VBS is and has always been to AVOID fusion and you certainly haven't presented any evidence against that.

I have evidence you are reckless with the truth...

I said my surgeon did NOT call my daughter cured but said she was back in the population on risk of all future back issues which *I* consider cured. Yet on your yahoo group you LATER claim I said the surgeon said she was cured.

Why isn't that lying? Do you care about intellectual honesty at all?

Sealy
23rd August 2009, 06:20 PM
Last, your conclusion from this exchange that all VBS procedures are expected to need fusion is COUNTERFACTUAL. There is no evidence at all from anyone who is doing these procedures that they even suspect fusion is required in most cases.

The aim of VBS is and has always been to AVOID fusion and you certainly haven't presented any evidence against that.

No doctor to my knowledge has ever stated that VBS is an alternative to fusion but rather bracing!!!!! I also think its high time that you fess up to your involvement in VBS and the Braist Study!

titch
23rd August 2009, 07:29 PM
ENOUGH!!!

There is a valid discussion in here somewhere, but all I'm seeing is bickering, and I've had enough. Threads (ie this one and any others spawned after it to continue this!) will be locked if you can't all just either be nice or leave it alone.

Pancake
23rd August 2009, 09:08 PM
No doctor to my knowledge has ever stated that VBS is an alternative to fusion but rather bracing!!!!!

Are you serious? That is in the context that bracing is an alternative to surgery. Are you really suggesting bracing isn't at least hoped to be an alternative to surgery?

What parent would allow their child to undergo VBS is it wasn't meant to avoid surgery? Can't you think at least a little bit ahead? How confused can you possibly be?

So the hope is that VBS will be BETTER than bracing in avoiding surgery. You really can't put these pieces together independently can you?

This error in your thinking is at a very basic level. Things like this prevent you from grasping the issues.

I also think its high time that you fess up to your involvement in VBS and the Braist Study!This is conspiracy theory again. Aer you also a creationist? I bet you are. I am a research scientist in a NON-medical field which is how I can point out what you are missing within your understanding of how science works.

I am not involved in VBS or BRAIST either from the research end or from accessing it for my daughters.

Experienced researchers and professional ethicists DISAGREE with you, a LAY parent. The heart of science is intellectual honesty. I don't know what your game is but it isn't that.

Sealy
23rd August 2009, 09:23 PM
My challenge to you is to find one article or statement by an orthopaedic doctor that VBS is an alternative to spinal fusion! I dare ya!

Pancake
23rd August 2009, 09:35 PM
My challenge to you is to find one article or statement by an orthopaedic doctor that VBS is an alternative to spinal fusion! I dare ya!

My challenge to you is to revisit those questions I posed to you a while ago and try to understand why you will continue to struggle to understand these issues.

Let me show you what I mean...

1. If VBS had no effect on rates of surgical fusion nor is it expected to change the rate surgical fusion, how would it be ethical for a surgeon to perform it?

2. If you really believe that VBS does not have its intention to lower if not obviate the need for surgical fusion then that is tantamount to admitting you don't think bracing works. Can you see why that necessarily follows from your statements?

Can you follow the logic there? Yes or no?

I would bet a lot of money you can not.

titch
23rd August 2009, 09:37 PM
I said ENOUGH and I meant it. Thread locked. If this fight persists in it's current confrontational and non-constructive state across other threads, further action will be taken, which may include moderation of all future posts by participants.

THIS IS NOT NSF.