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View Full Version : What do all large scoliosis curves have in common?


Dr. Stitzel
11th July 2009, 12:19 PM
What do all large scoliosis curves have in common? They all started out as small curves! E-SMART (Early Stage Management, Rehabilitation Treatment) has been started as an alternative to the wait and watch/ observation only state. We are promoting a pro-active approach to scoliosis treatment rather than a reactive approach.

I mean, let's face it. No 12 year old kid goes to bed with a 15 degree curve and wakes up with a 50 degree curve. Scoliosis is a progressive condition that can be reversed entirely if intervention is applied before the curvature reaches 30 degrees (inwhich it starts buckling onto of itself like a rubber band that has been twisted one to many times).

We have a whole section dedicated to this concept at www.fixscoliosis.com (http://www.fixscoliosis.com)

Please be adviced.....that forum is related entirely to treatment, not support.

tonibunny
11th July 2009, 12:29 PM
Dingo is currently hoping that torso rotation exercises will help his son, who has a minor curve. His son is only five years old though so it's imperative that he tries to keep the curve as small as possible. Do have a read of his posts, they're very interesting :)

Dr. Stitzel
11th July 2009, 01:16 PM
Dingo is currently hoping that torso rotation exercises will help his son, who has a minor curve. His son is only five years old though so it's imperative that he tries to keep the curve as small as possible. Do have a read of his posts, they're very interesting :)

HI Tonibunny,
I know Dingo from the www.fixscoliosis.com (http://www.fixscoliosis.com) forum....he is a bright dude.
Scoliosis is a condition (not using the D-word) inwhich the twisting cases a buckling effect on the spine. Much like twisting a rubber band one too many times. Dingo is on the right track, but again, like a rubber band, the twisting needs to be un-done from the top and bottom and working it's way back to the middle. Plus, scoliosis is a 3-D deformity....just like a twisted rubber band.....so he will need to create space in the verticle and front-back dimensions, before he can take the excess spine out of the side to side dimension. It is really just a conservation of matter......you need to create space on the other dimensions, before you can take it out of a dimension with too much spine....this is why bracing will never work.....it is trying to force the spine straight without creating space in the other 2 dimensions......plus, it doesn't control head or pelvis position....which is what is causing the rubber band to twist in the first place. Please read my theory post in the general discussion section for more detail.

Scoliosis seems to be a discoordination between the lower and upper torso until it reachs 20 degress.....they spinal cord tension causes the pathological twisting patterns that cause rapid progression......the trick is to control the head and pelvis position before it reaches 20 degress.

I'm tell you......this can be done......I do it in my clinic every week! Take 5 min and watch the intro video on the front of the CLEAR website.....it will really help to explain things.

Amazed Jean
11th July 2009, 09:40 PM
I have been around scoliosis a long time. A few years ago I so loved that I finally found SSO. I even took the Amazed name because I was so impressed with this site. People - real people that speak scoliosis are here. I don't want to hear from doctors or clinicians. I can do that any day. I so wish that all the clinics and doctors that pop in and out on the SSO site would keep in mind that we are a support group. We are here to support people however we can. I would hope that the chiros., doctors, and clinic staff are busy enough that they don't have time to address our group. Get out there and get your own site - if you have one -use it. We are individuals who are there for each other. Leave us to our supporting.

cherrybird
11th July 2009, 10:34 PM
Well said jean,
Most of us know all too well that big curves come from small curves, and many will have been able to gain a great amount of information about the condition. If we have access to support groups we choose to go there for support, not for clinicians to try and bombard us with information whether we want it or not. Face it we have the facility to come here, so if we wish to, we can visit your sites and make up our own minds. There are enough posts from your site here now so surely you can credit us with the sense to choose to go there without you trying to force your views on us!

Simon
12th July 2009, 03:12 PM
My personal wish is that you would go hence from here

Go Back To Your Fix It Forum And Stay Away From Ours

Your A Chiropractor Not A Doctor ..

I am rather distressed by the way I think you are Undermining People And Scaring People and I perceive that my nipples feel under pressure due to this.

461992
12th July 2009, 03:23 PM
Do One Dickhead ..

Go Back To Your Fix It Forum And Stay Away From Ours

Your A Chiropractor Not A Doctor ..

You Really Get Right On My Tits Undermining People And Scaring People .

I hate to say it but I agree with Simon. When I was first diagnosed I had a curve of around 40 degrees, I ended up with one nearly 80. The only way to reduce severe curves is to have surgery sooner, waiting a year didn't exactly help me.

Oh ya, and for the year I was waiting and much before I went to a chiropracter twice a week almost every week. That didn't really help.

tonibunny
12th July 2009, 03:37 PM
Please keep calm chaps, and don't be rude :)

Simon
12th July 2009, 03:52 PM
I am rather distressed by the way I think you are Undermining People And Scaring People and I perceive that my nipples feel under pressure due to this.




THATS JUST MADE MY DAY YOUR DIFFERENT WORDS HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH

I CAN NOT STOP LAUGHING

CHEERS TONI XX

tonibunny
12th July 2009, 03:54 PM
Good Simon, it's just a gentle nudge to say keep it civil please :)

Dingo
12th July 2009, 04:10 PM
Dr. Stitzel

he is a bright dude

I don't know if I'm bright so much as desperate for answers and willing to read a million hours a week. :)

I will say without reservation that all of my reading has made me a believer in PT. It's very difficult to study because probably 2 out of 3 kids are noncompliant. That's what McIntire found among children who did exercises unmonitored at home (http://journals.lww.com/jspinaldisorders/Abstract/2008/07000/Treatment_of_Adolescent_Idiopathic_Scoliosis_With. 10.aspx).

In the same study he pointed out some interesting facts that probably explain why adolescent girls have worse Scoliosis than boys.

Girls may be more vulnerable to scoliosis progression because of the difference in trunk musculature. AIS girls are less mesomorphic than controls. 28 (http://journals.lww.com/spinejournal/Abstract/1998/05150/Morphologic_Discrimination_Among__Healthy_Subjects .7.aspx), 29 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9383860) Trunk flexion and extension strength in young girls, but not boys, decreases from the juvenile to the adolescent years. 30 (http://www.springerlink.com/content/w2712m1857278824/)

Put simply muscle mass appears to offer some protection from Scoliosis. I was amazed to read that trunk muscle mass DECREASES when girls become adolescents! I assume this has something to do with optimizing the body for child birthing. On the downside it must make them vulnerable to Scoliosis if something goes wrong with the nervous system (http://pico.sssup.it/files/allegati/2004_1469.pdf) or other subsystems.

Sealy
12th July 2009, 04:26 PM
What's this about Simon's nipples being under pressure????LOL!!!! :D

Dr. Stitzel
12th July 2009, 04:38 PM
Dr. Stitzel



I don't know if I'm bright so much as desperate for answers and willing to read a million hours a week. :)

I will say without reservation that all of my reading has made me a believer in PT. It's very difficult to study because probably 2 out of 3 kids are noncompliant. That's what McIntire found among children who did exercises unmonitored at home (http://journals.lww.com/jspinaldisorders/Abstract/2008/07000/Treatment_of_Adolescent_Idiopathic_Scoliosis_With. 10.aspx).

In the same study he pointed out some interesting facts that probably explain why adolescent girls have worse Scoliosis than boys.



Put simply muscle mass appears to offer some protection from Scoliosis. I was amazed to read that trunk muscle mass DECREASES when girls become adolescents! I assume this has something to do with optimizing the body for child birthing. On the downside it must make them vulnerable to Scoliosis if something goes wrong with the nervous system (http://pico.sssup.it/files/allegati/2004_1469.pdf) or other subsystems.



I will say without reservation that all of my reading has made me a believer in PT. It's very difficult to study because probably 2 out of 3 kids are noncompliant.

--- yeah, compliance is a constant problem......the best solution I have found with these kids in terms of compliance is to motive with hope, not fear (which is why it seems amazing that I'm being accused of fear mongering).....and keep the confusion rate, as low as possible.

Dingo
12th July 2009, 06:34 PM
Dr. Stitzel

Scott is just 5 and he doesn't know that he has Scoliosis. We motivate him by explaining how strong and tough the exercises make him. He loves that. :)

We try to make the exercises fun and quick which seems to help a lot. He does 3 "mini" workouts of about 2 to 5 minutes each plus 15 minutes on a balance board during TV time. He focuses well in short bursts and the rest of the day we leave him alone. We also fill out a daily exercise diary which helps us stay on track.

Unlike his dad he is a natural athelete and I think that helps too. Video: Yesterday he taught himself how to do a flip (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/scottjumpz.mp4/). :)

mark
12th July 2009, 06:40 PM
Dingo, hi dude, i'm loving the way are you handling your sons scoliosis, i just wish my parents (although in the dark days the surgeon was the god) handled my case better, i know they feel bad for me and that heaps more on me because i don't blame them, i just wanted to say to you, dude your awesome, you are handling the things in such a detached loving and matter of fact way. Your a good dad dude, don't never let anyone tell you different

love to you and your family

mark

MemmaLou
12th July 2009, 07:05 PM
My personal wish is that you would go hence from here

Go Back To Your Fix It Forum And Stay Away From Ours

Your A Chiropractor Not A Doctor ..

I am rather distressed by the way I think you are Undermining People And Scaring People and I perceive that my nipples feel under pressure due to this.
love it :D i think i may be smiling for the rest of the day now...

Sealy
12th July 2009, 09:47 PM
Dingo,

Your son is adorable!

zoolane
12th July 2009, 09:50 PM
Dingo,
You and your son are great team will done make fun for him. best wishes Jo x

Dingo
13th July 2009, 04:25 PM
mark
zoolane

Thanks you guys. I hope when my wife and I are old my son remembers our efforts and doesn't put us in a nursing home. :)

Sealy
Your son is adorable!

Not when he is fighting his brother which is roughly 50% of the day. :D

zoolane
14th July 2009, 09:22 AM
that all kids got 3 girls to younger are 5,8 drive me insantly tell tales, hit each others.

cdugar
16th July 2009, 05:48 PM
It sounds to me like all he (Dr Stizel) is doing is trying to offer all of us hope, not fear. Facts are facts, you can put powdered sugar on them and they still come out facts. I know that I never had any hope until I found the right person to help me. I didn't know where to look for help. I fell into help. I lived with a terrible complex. I wanted to be popular, but I had to conceal my "rib hump" I always wore long hair. Never wore it up, or short. It would show too bad. Now I wear my hair pinned up a lot and I go out in public. Soon, I'm going to buy a low back dress and wear it to see Dr. Wogon. My Chiropractor, Dr. Culpepper, is working extra hard to help me get to that point. She is very committed to my progression. She cares for every patient that comes through her door. I don't know how she finds the time, she is so busy. Please go to a web site that I happened on today www.fixscoliosis.com (http://www.fixscoliosis.com). Great reading. If you like me just didn't know. Anyway, at 64, soon, I'm going to put my hair up, strut a short black backless dress and to Dr. Culpepper's chagrin, highheels.

mark
16th July 2009, 07:01 PM
I'm really pleased for you that this method of treatment has worked for you. We on this site don't care how someone comes by a successful intervention and despite everythingwe are open minded. I'm afraid what narked people here was the good Dr did not have an open mind. Just one thing that stuck in my mind from a post he made was he said that he would rather see someone have no treatment rather than surgery. Now that to me is a proffesuional and unethical statement coming from someone has pledged an outh to help cure.

So once again i'm really over the moon for you, if i remember rightly and i could be wrong did you say that yout were told old for surgery. I think that is down right unfair as i have read plenty of stories where people well into old age were considered candidates for surgery.

I think with a lot of these studies both pro and negative the researcher fails to take humanity into account. Its ok saying surgery is wrong because the condition isnt goint to kill you but that fails to take into account those who have killed themselves because of self esteem issues


I could go on and on but i'm sure i will end up boring you

Thanks for the post

mark

angie123
16th July 2009, 10:10 PM
I think with a lot of these studies both pro and negative the researcher fails to take humanity into account. Its ok saying surgery is wrong because the condition isnt goint to kill you but that fails to take into account those who have killed themselves because of self esteem issues

Is it that common for teens/adults to commit suicide because of self-esteem issues related to their scoliosis? Are there any numbers out there? That's horrible. I can't imagine anyone having a problem with having surgery (whether it was considered cosmetic or not) in cases that bad. But I was under the impression that cases that cause severe deformity are quite rare. Perhaps that's why I've never considered surgery, I've never been self-conscious of my scoliosis because no one (doctors included) can tell I have it unless they see an x-ray. In that respect I suppose I don't really even have the right to comment on a lot of the posts on here, since I don't really understand any of the aspects of scoliosis except the pain.

mark
16th July 2009, 10:28 PM
Hi Angie, of course you have a right to post on any thread in these forums, after all we are to suport anyone what ever there degree of curvature or mental state. I can only talk from my own experiences and yes, unfortunately i was one of those who attempted and thought about suicide a lot as an adolescent and that has followed me through my adult life

If you click on my link in my sig and go to about page 8 and read on and you will get my life story, i'm just an individual and i can only speak from experiences. But and this is a big but when i read about this condition being benign and non life threatening it upsets me because, yes maybe its not like brain cancer but these people who play god with our lives do not have to our lives

They do not have to go through there adolescent years being ridiculed infront of there pears, they dont have to through the crap of having to be told to sit up straight by there loved ones, they asume that that the cocoon that is the bossoom of there family they can find refuge but that does nt happen, we are constantly told to sit up straight put out shoulders back stop slouching well poo we were sitting up straight it s not out fault its structural

where can we find refuge, we can't, where scared our drs tell us its not life threatening but they don't have to go back to play ground and be taunted mercifully

like i said i can only speak personally and to sum it up

I spent the first 10 years of my life happy, the next ten years i was persecuted and wanted to die, the next 10 i did things o stop myself remembering the crap i went through and i spent the next 10 years paying for the poo i did to forget.


To sum it up, we are supposed to spend our formative years happy, i spent mine wanting to die and i have obliterated those years from my memory so i have took out at least 20 years of my life

I've had two nervous break downs, the last one almost resulted in me seriously taking my own life, i've been on valium, prozac and every other anti deppresent most of my life, i've done things i'm not proud of, took drugs and had a serious problem with alcohol in the name of forgetting my problems, i'm getting better but i'm almost 40, i can't keep doing this to my body, its wrecked

Rodsrme
16th July 2009, 10:37 PM
like i said i can only speak personally and to sum it up

I spent the first 10 years of my life happy, the next ten years i was persecuted and wanted to die, the next 10 i did things o stop myself remembering the crap i went through and i spent the next 10 years paying for the poo i did to forget.


To sum it up, we are supposed to spend our formative years happy, i spent mine wanting to die and i have obliterated those years from my memory so i have took out at least 20 years of my life


The question is what are you going to do with the next ten years? :D

There is the song... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imsm-jIjVio

I LOVE IT!!!!! :D

mark
17th July 2009, 12:10 AM
Sometimes i wish i could die, i wish i could just fade away, smash my body into dust, return myself to dust, i'm such an ignificant tiny piece of dust that time and space can just pound up my bent bones into this space we call our world, so sprinkle my ashes, under a nice big tree, don't bother with a coffin, its just a drain on our natural resources, bury me under a tree next to the oceaon, thats all i want, i don't ask too much from life

titch
17th July 2009, 09:52 AM
It sounds to me like all he (Dr Stizel) is doing is trying to offer all of us hope, not fear. Facts are facts, you can put powdered sugar on them and they still come out facts. I know that I never had any hope until I found the right person to help me.

First up, I'd like to say how very glad I am that you have found something to help you :) It sounds like your results have been fantastic, and I hope you continue to get better still.

I don't want to kick off the whole argument again, but I do just want to make clear again for everyone that the issue with Dr Stitzel was not the medical information he provided, or the studies he linked to. It was the tone that he took. Declaring us all, whether surgical or non-surgical, to have a victim mentality - on the basis essentially of being a member of this website, is not acceptable. We reached a point where I said that I would let no further posts through except for that kind of information, as I have no problem with the information itself. Consquently, as there was no further information his final posts was not published. However, he admits taking an alarmist tone, and that he wanted to shock and upset people in order to get his message across. THAT is what is unacceptable. That goes well beyond offering people hope, don't you think? As said, I don't want this whole thing kicked off again, but I do want you and others to understand *why* it is that we took the actions we did.

I'll say it again, I really and truly hope that practicioners of non-surgical therapies will start doing proper studies that actually tell us something useful. If they really want the surgeons to sit up and take notice, if they really want patients to actually feel safe spending their money with them (bear in mind across here it is our own money, not that of the insurance company, and the NHS which we are taxed to pay for does not provide many adjunct therapies), then this is what they should do. I understand that for an individual this may not be possible, but I am talking about the major bodies who can ffod advertising. I consider it a moral imperative - to believe that you have the answer and yet to nothing *constructive* to get the message out there does not sit well with me - I will be delighted when the day comes that far, far fewer of us require surgery.

I've suffered at the hands of a surgeon who was not a specialist and did not know what he was doing, and am still paying for that now. Had I had no treatment at all, I'd probably have a 100+ degree curve now, and be in a poor state due to that. Had I had surgery with a specialist, I'd most likely - while not necessarily completely pain free (mind you, as such a large proportion of adults suffer back pain, it would probably be hard to say it was definitely surgical) - never have needed forums and never have ended up in a position where I set up this website. It's not all bad no matter what :) The great thing about this place is that you lot, the members, are what make it so fantastic, and I'm honoured to know you all.

zoolane
17th July 2009, 10:12 AM
Sometimes i wish i could die, i wish i could just fade away, smash my body into dust, return myself to dust, i'm such an ignificant tiny piece of dust that time and space can just pound up my bent bones into this space we call our world, so sprinkle my ashes, under a nice big tree, don't bother with a coffin, its just a drain on our natural resources, bury me under a tree next to the oceaon, thats all i want, i don't ask too much from life


Dearest Mark,
I know you had hard time over recent years, please do not any thing stupid, I know you won't because your family but also know that sometimes things get on top of you.

We all here for you even if you just ramble on and on in threads or pmls. we loves you very muchs and you big part community.
Jo xx:ghug:

Pancake
17th July 2009, 07:01 PM
My personal wish is that you would go hence from here

Go Back To Your Fix It Forum And Stay Away From Ours

Your A Chiropractor Not A Doctor ..

I am rather distressed by the way I think you are Undermining People And Scaring People and I perceive that my nipples feel under pressure due to this.

I am honored to use my first post here to congratulate both Simon and Tonibunny on this most excellent collaboration on a post. :cheers:

tonibunny
17th July 2009, 07:51 PM
:D Hello Sharon, welcome to SSO! :welcome2:

Pancake
17th July 2009, 08:51 PM
Thanks, Tonibunny.

I notice some of the same folk inhabit both this site and NSF.

Looking forward to reading what others here have to say.

Best regards,
sharon

tonibunny
17th July 2009, 09:02 PM
Hi Sharon,

That's right, we have tons of members here who belong to NSF and Spinekids too, and we're always happy to point people over to other sites. It's all good :)

Toni xx

Pancake
17th July 2009, 11:09 PM
Hi Sharon,

That's right, we have tons of members here who belong to NSF and Spinekids too, and we're always happy to point people over to other sites. It's all good :)

Toni xx

Yes you have always adopted an extremely generous mood with respect to the sites working together or at least not competing.

Is there a way I can be instantly notified if you edit another of Simon's posts? :D

tonibunny
17th July 2009, 11:11 PM
I'll let you know if I do, Simon likes a laugh so I know he won't be offended :joke:

burdle
18th July 2009, 12:20 PM
Hi Sharon,

That's right, we have tons of members here who belong to NSF and Spinekids too, and we're always happy to point people over to other sites. It's all good :)

Toni xx


What is NSF please?

tonibunny
18th July 2009, 12:56 PM
NSF is the National Scoliosis Foundation of America, they have excellent forums too :) Here's a link:

NSF Forums (http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/index.php)

Simon
25th July 2009, 10:20 PM
Yes you have always adopted an extremely generous mood with respect to the sites working together or at least not competing.

Is there a way I can be instantly notified if you edit another of Simon's posts? :D

I will sure let you know Sharon ..

And if I perceive that my nipples feel under pressure due to this i will let you know Also
X

Pancake
26th July 2009, 01:05 AM
I will sure let you know Sharon ..

And if I perceive that my nipples feel under pressure due to this i will let you know Also
X

I love this place!

Small mercies like that along the way while having to deal with spine stuff actually matter to me. :hug: