PDA

View Full Version : Post-traumatic scoliosis


Spyro
22nd February 2008, 11:48 PM
Hi.

I'm a 23 years old male. When I was 21 I had an injury doing Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (a Judo-like Martial Art). The injury was caused by an excess of flexion (my back bent a lot). I recovered 100% in around 4 weeks, after this I only felt a little pain in that zone if I put a lot of weight in my shoulders trainning calves in the gym.

Some months ago I started to feel pain again trainning in the gym, and one day I woke up with an immense pain. I went to the doctor (traumatologist) and he discovered in a X-Ray that I have scoliosis starting in that exact zone. He said me that my scoliosis is mild (about 14 degrees), that I have nothing to worry about, the pain will disappear with the time, and that I can continue trainning in the gym but with more moderation. He didn't say me anything about bone damage or structural damage.

But when I see the X-Rays it doesn't look that mild to me... also the pain has not disappeared and I have shrunk (this is the thing that annoys me more, because I'm a short guy and now I'm shorter), before de injury I was around 5'7.75"/172cm and now I'm 5'7"/170cm. Before the injury my back was perfectly straight, 0 degrees.

So I started an extensive research on the Internet about non-surgical treatments and I found the CLEAR Institute and the Schroth Method. Finally I decided to go for the CLEAR Institute Intensive Treatment so I contacted Dr. Woggon and he scheduled me for April. I have seen great improvements in very dedicated CLEAR Institute patients, for example this girl (http://tinyurl.com/3yg7tf) went for 30 degrees to around 0 degrees in 2 years and a half, I have read also in the scoliosis.org forum about a guy that went from 60 to 13 in 3 years :-o. I'm gonna be very dedicated too, I won't give up until I get my spine to same before the injury (0 degrees).

Is here anybody with any experience with post-traumatic (NOT idiopathic) scoliosis?

My X-Rays:
> #1 < (http://tinyurl.com/32yawn)
> #2 < (http://tinyurl.com/2r2o2e)

Amazed Jean
23rd February 2008, 12:19 AM
Welcome to SSO!! I can't think of anyone right off that has post traumatic scoliosis. There might be someone though so keep checking back since people come and go rather randomly. I am doing a bit of research for myself about the Clear Institute just now. It might be a fit for you. However I am going to tell you what I warn everyone here. Your health is most important to YOU. You do research, ask lots of questions and keep a notebook of questions and answers. Try to get copies or pix of xrays and scans for you to keep - they are often lost in clinics and usually purged after 6 years. Trust yourself only. Also if you have other problems don't sit on them. Find someone to check them out. Breathing struggles for instance or unusual pain should send you quickly to a trusted scoliosis specialist for lung function tests. Good Luck and keep us posted!

tonibunny
23rd February 2008, 01:21 AM
Hi there,

Good luck, I can only echo what Jean says. It is always a good idea to hear what actual patients have to say about treatments, and I am sure you are aware that there are many people on the NSF forum who have tried treatment with the Clear Institute and are not happy with the results.

I looked on the NSF forums for someone with a 60 degree curve that regressed to 12 degrees, but sadly it was not firsthand info from the patient themself:

"Dr. woggon told me of one example of a reduction in curve from 60+ degrees to 13 degrees over 3 years"

As you have a normal back otherwise, and your scoliosis is very mild (if it is still at 14 degrees) then I am sure physical therapy of any sort would be useful to you.

Good luck!

Toni xx

sins
23rd February 2008, 11:23 AM
Possibly Blair may have had post traumatic scoliosis following a severe injury when kicked by a horse.She had surgery for her scoliosis though.
Sins

titch
23rd February 2008, 09:37 PM
While I don't know how it would affect the measurement of the curvature (it might actually even make it bigger), one thing I can say is that I think the measurement of the curvature on the xrays of the person who reduced from 30 has been done wrongly. It is supposed to be done on the most slanted vertebrae, but it looks very much to me as though the top line has been drawn on at a point after the spine is returning to straight. As I say, this doesn't mean that the measurement of the original curvature is overstated, it may well actually be understated, but either way it doesn't look correct.

Out of curiousity, have you had spine or chest xrays before this injury? I only ask because a 14 degree curve is definitely small enough to fail to be noticed by any other means. The height loss I would think is perhaps more likely to be sagittal - ie based on your profile, due to a slight increase in your kyphosis (the rounding out of the shoulders), as it's pretty common to have a postural increase due to "guarding" after an injury (it's particularly common in weightlifters to get some [usually temporary] loss of height for this reason after injury). Certainly some form of physical therapy is likely to be beneficial to you, and should help with pain :-)

Spyro
24th February 2008, 08:57 AM
Thanks for the replys.

Yeah I had an X-Ray around 1 year and a half before the injury in which the spine was totally perfect :nut:. I hope that they can put it in his original form. :roll:

Spyro
24th February 2008, 10:27 AM
Hi again.

There's a member of the forum that has sent me a private message about this post but when I try to send him a reply I receive this error:

"The following errors were found
This message can not be sent because the recipient does not have permission to use the personal messenger.
This personal message has not been sent"

Why? :(

titch
24th February 2008, 09:42 PM
That's very odd - could you please contact me via PM to tell me who the member is, so that I can investigate? Thanks!

Spyro
6th March 2008, 02:17 PM
I have uploaded another photo, this time it's a forward bend of me: Link (http://tinyurl.com/2lav34)
Looks like my cervical curve dissapears :-o

red19
9th March 2008, 08:05 PM
So my doctors appointment isnt for a few weeks, but i have posted a topic called i was told i had scoliosis today...and the things u are saying here...sounds like a right match to me. i was in a very very bad accident last fall 06, and was paralyzed on the right side of my body, and im still recovering from that, but im up, im walking, im a lot healthier. i had many many many x rays, ctscans, and mri's and my spine was not curved at all! or they would have mentioned something...now, i have been having so much pain my back, and i thought it might be my kidneys because i was just recovering from a kidney infection...turns out my spine is definetly curved! but i have no idea way, i was told that it could be because my right side was so innactive for so long that the muscles are pulling on my spine and thats causing the curve. its causing me a great deal of pain!!
i truly believe that my accident had something to do with this, and that i have post traumatic scoliosis as well...but i wont know until i see the doctor in a few weeks to decide!

Arthur
19th March 2008, 06:35 PM
Hi, welcome there;)

I just wanted to say, that it is possible to get your spine full straight, good luck! :)

Spyro
24th April 2008, 07:31 PM
Hi people, I'm back from the USA! I finished the treatment on April 18.

I had a 26 scoliosis (16 curve + 10 compensatory curve). Now I am at 7 (6 curve + 1 compensatory curve); Very good results, reduction of 19 in 11 days. Also I have gained height (around 2 cm), in fact when I returned my sister inmediately said "WOW! You look taller!", later my parents said to me exactly the same, LOL. Dr Woggon is a genius. My lung capacity has increased too (from 4300 cc to 4900 cc).

Now I'm gonna try the Schroth Method, I expect to reduce my 7 to 0 with it. I'm not gonna stop until I get the absolute ZERO, I have won a battle but the war still continues.

I will post pictures of X-Rays soon.

caro
24th April 2008, 08:46 PM
is the CLEAR institute treatment only available in the States??

Spyro
24th April 2008, 10:07 PM
Outside the US there are only one doctor trained in the CLEAR Institute Method with Elite Level in Taiwan.
In Europe I think the best option is the Schroth Method in Barcelona (Dr. Manuel Rigo). I'm gonna do the next treatment in his clinic.

Simon
25th April 2008, 01:25 AM
Looking forward to seeing your xrays spro when do you think they will be up

Spyro
25th April 2008, 05:07 AM
I have e-mailed Dr. Woggon asking him to send me good quality photos of my pre & post X-Rays. He usually reply my e-mails very fast so I think they will be for tomorrow.

Blair
25th April 2008, 06:06 AM
Sins is correct- I had a pretty nasty horse accident that my surgeon feels may have played a part in a previously very small (really not much bigger than yours when first discovered), stable curve progressing only after skeletal maturity to surgical proportions. There's no way to prove or disprove, but there isn't really any other explanation for it. I had surgery due to the size and imbalance of my curve a little over four years ago...

My best friend injured her back (among other things) when she and her horse got hit by a truck. In the years since, the disc degeneration had led to her developing mild scoliosis as well...

jfkimberly
25th April 2008, 07:08 AM
Oh my... your best friend's experience sounds awful! How did her poor horse fare?

Spyro
25th April 2008, 06:10 PM
Hi again. Here are my X-Rays:

> Pre (26) < (http://tinyurl.com/4qahtq)
> Post (7) < (http://tinyurl.com/42psqr)

titch
25th April 2008, 06:46 PM
Cool xrays. I would just like to point out that it is not correct to add the angles together, as each curve should be listed as it's own entity. Still, I'm glad you're happy with your treatment and that it seems to have done well for you :-)

GillyG
25th April 2008, 06:57 PM
Well, I copied both your images into Paint Shop Pro to compare them side-by-side ... and I'm afraid I remain unconvinced of any significant changes :-?

As Titch says, the angles can't be added together to give a 'final score', as it were, so that is very misleading if that's what the clinic have done for you.

However, the important thing is that you seem happy that with the treatment and feel that you have experienced some benefits.

Thanks for sharing your X-rays with us :-)

Spyro
25th April 2008, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by titch@Apr 25 2008, 04:46 PM
Cool xrays. I would just like to point out that it is not correct to add the angles together, as each curve should be listed as it's own entity. Still, I'm glad you're happy with your treatment and that it seems to have done well for you :-)
I didn't paint that angles, they were painted by Dr. Woggon who is Doctor of Chiropractic and works with scoliosis every day. Are you saying that after decades working in this field he doesn't know how to draw the angles? LOL

Spyro
25th April 2008, 07:21 PM
Here are my X-Rays without the red angles:

> Pre < (http://tinyurl.com/5t94an)
> Post < (http://tinyurl.com/5h59sg)

Spyro
25th April 2008, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by GillyG@Apr 25 2008, 04:57 PM
Well, I copied both your images into Paint Shop Pro to compare them side-by-side ... and I'm afraid I remain unconvinced of any significant changes :-?

As Titch says, the angles can't be added together to give a 'final score', as it were, so that is very misleading if that's what the clinic have done for you.

However, the important thing is that you seem happy that with the treatment and feel that you have experienced some benefits.

Thanks for sharing your X-rays with us :-)
How much degrees do I have in your opinion? Do you know how to measure it with Paint Shop Pro? I'm interested in it.

Anyway I have an objective proof of the reduction of the Cobb Angle, I'm taller. :-)

Thanks for your opinion. :-)

Amazed Jean
25th April 2008, 08:07 PM
Spyro,
You seem to be happy with your results and your chiro is too. Congrats! That's what matters - your being happy with your results. I can't read an xray to save my soul. I do have a daughter that that is schooled and certified in - Radialogic Technology. I have her read mine, because anything is possible. I have gotten 2 different scoliosis doc's argue my curves numbers while both were looking at the same xrays at the same time. Just a degree here and there/ I find it's like anything - everybody has their own opinion. Oh by the way, I would KILL for your before curve numbers! Good Luck with Schroth or whatever you pursue.

caro
25th April 2008, 08:21 PM
Sorry Spyro, when I replied before I was in such a rush that I didn't acyually say congratulations. You must be so pleased. I am doing Schroth in the summer and am hoping for similar results although my angles are alot worse. Brilliant news - good luck with Schroth - keep us posted!

GillyG
25th April 2008, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Spyro@Apr 25 2008, 05:45 PM

How much degrees do I have in your opinion? Do you know how to measure it with Paint Shop Pro? I'm interested in it.

Anyway I have an objective proof of the reduction of the Cobb Angle, I'm taller. :-)

Thanks for your opinion. :-)
He he! No, I can't measure the angles in Paint Shop Pro, it was just a way of looking at the two images side-by-side! It's a bit easier to compare the second set you posted, without the red lines, although your shoulders appear slightly more uneven in the post treatment one - perhaps just the way you are standing?

Being taller is cool, it was one of the post-op benefits I enjoyed, although I have lost a little bit of height again now my spine has 'settled' into its' fused position.

Good luck with the Schroth. Are you going to Germany for treatment?

tonibunny
25th April 2008, 10:01 PM
Hi Spryo,

I'm glad that you feel that you're taller and that this treatment has helped :-) I can't see any difference on your x-rays myself, but maybe someone with a larger curve would have more drastic results.

The standard way to measure curves is to measure each one separately, so I guess Dr Woggon has his own way of doing things.

Toni

alyssa
26th April 2008, 01:07 AM
You're not supposed to add the angles together, if you've got two curves then that doesn't make it one angle, they are two seperate measurements! I had 2 curves, one of 44* and the other 23*. I personally don't see a change either but what counts is that you are happy with the outcome and the fact that you are taller =)) Congratulations!

Lyssie xx

titch
26th April 2008, 03:15 PM
Just to be devil's advocate, I would point out that changes to your sagittal profile, ie reduction in kyphosis and lordosis (the later could be particularly likely to happen if the exercises have improved the way that you engage your core muscles) could account for the height increase. Also, if the measurements were taken at different times of day, this could affect things significantly. Your posture definitely appears different in the second xray than the first, so something has happened between the two. Whatever the case, I'm glad that you feel better for the treatment :-)

Spyro
26th April 2008, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by GillyG+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (GillyG)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
your shoulders appear slightly more uneven in the post treatment one - perhaps just the way you are standing?
[/b]
I don't know, probably I hadn't all the muscles relaxed or the breath, it doesn't worries me, I have seen tons of X-Rays of people with perfect or almost perfect spines with uneven shoulders too (you have an example here (http://www.practicevelocity.com/urgent_care/uploaded_images/chest_xray.jpg)).

<!--QuoteBegin-GillyG

Good luck with the Schroth. Are you going to Germany for treatment?
[/quote]
No, to Barcelona (Spain), to the same clinic that Erika Maude (http://www.erikamaude.com/partI.html). She reduced his curves in a half with that treatment and has mantained that correction for more than 3 years. I will post my results with that treatment too.

jfkimberly
27th April 2008, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Spyro+Apr 25 2008, 11:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Spyro @ Apr 25 2008, 11:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-titch@Apr 25 2008, 04:46 PM
Cool xrays. I would just like to point out that it is not correct to add the angles together, as each curve should be listed as it's own entity. Still, I'm glad you're happy with your treatment and that it seems to have done well for you :-)
I didn't paint that angles, they were painted by Dr. Woggon who is Doctor of Chiropractic and works with scoliosis every day. Are you saying that after decades working in this field he doesn't know how to draw the angles? LOL [/b][/quote]
Titch didn't say anything about the drawing of the angles here... Why are you defending them when that's not what she was referring to? Instead, she was accurately pointing out that you don't add the angles of multiple curves together to obtain a total curve measurement. A 16 thoracic curve and a 10 lumbar curve together do not add up to a 26 curve. That's nonsensical, as the curves go in opposite directions and actually balance each other out.

Also, like Gilly, I have looked at both xrays side by side in Photoshop, and I can't see much difference between them. If anything, it looks to me it looks like your upper curve might be slightly worse in the post-treatment pic.

mark
29th April 2008, 01:46 AM
numbers, numbers - be - devil the number, a numbers just a number, it doesn't matter what the number is. Jean hit the nail right on the head when she said there's people on this website who would die for your pre x ray.

Take a look around the various galleries on this site and you will see what people have to put up with on a daily basis. Your happy with Schroth then fine, people on this and other sites are sceptical of Schroth and various practitioners who use the Schroth name to base there treatments on. If someone has enough disposable income to spend on the huge fees charged by these practitioners then fair play, you earned it, you spend it how you wish.

But and this is a big but, we have seen lots of false hope and downright lies peddled to people who are desperate to rid either themselves or there loved ones of this curse we all have to carry around and if i or many others can save at least one parent or member of this site not only there hard earned cash but vital time that could better be employed in seeking a more conventional form of treatment and stopping a curve progressing then i will and i wont apologise for it either.

Now you might read this post and think what dinasour. Thats not the case i have a very open mind. I do my research and explore sides of an argument before making a judgement but i have to live with my back everysingle day of the year and its not a pretty sight and thats just the cosmetics and not the pain i am constanty in. This is not a woo - is - me post theres plenty of members on this site with a lot more pain and a lot larger curves. But we have all one thing in common in that if you care to read our stories most of us have, at one time or another been let down very badly by members of the medical fraternity including Drs, Chyro's, Quaks and the loons out there practicing treatments for at best unsrcupulous gain at worst a misguided al perception that they are infact helping rather than making the problems worse and peddling false hope to some very vulnerable parents and patients.

Now i have prattled on for far too long so i will leave you with this, mines not a technical post, i don''t talk about numbers, degrees cobb angles etc etc etc. No i aint bothered if my curves more than a hundred or less than a hundred. Knowing that isnt gonna ease the pain i'm in on a daily basis or stop people staring at me cause they think i'm a freak. I havent got a clue what angle my curve is i don't paticulalry care or want to know what it is as i just said knowing a number isnt going to cure my pain or the ridicule i get. The only thing that will cure that is a titanium rod.

If you manage to read through these inane ramblings then go and have a look in the kyphosis forum, where you will see a number of photos in the gallery posted by some very brave members of this website. You will see all differed sizes and shape of curve. By the way i'm mark the one with the rather large hump on his back which i asume is my penance for having commited something unspeakable in a earlier life.

Have a great trip to Spain, i hope you get what you want out of it at a reaonable price and i look forward to reading about your stay in Spain

mark

Spyro
29th April 2008, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by jfkimberly+Apr 27 2008, 06:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (jfkimberly @ Apr 27 2008, 06:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Originally posted by Spyro@Apr 25 2008, 11:04 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-titch@Apr 25 2008, 04:46 PM
Cool xrays.* I would just like to point out that it is not correct to add the angles together, as each curve should be listed as it's own entity.* Still, I'm glad you're happy with your treatment and that it seems to have done well for you :-)
I didn't paint that angles, they were painted by Dr. Woggon who is Doctor of Chiropractic and works with scoliosis every day. Are you saying that after decades working in this field he doesn't know how to draw the angles? LOL
Titch didn't say anything about the drawing of the angles here... Why are you defending them when that's not what she was referring to? Instead, she was accurately pointing out that you don't add the angles of multiple curves together to obtain a total curve measurement. A 16 thoracic curve and a 10 lumbar curve together do not add up to a 26 curve. That's nonsensical, as the curves go in opposite directions and actually balance each other out.

Also, like Gilly, I have looked at both xrays side by side in Photoshop, and I can't see much difference between them. If anything, it looks to me it looks like your upper curve might be slightly worse in the post-treatment pic. [/b][/quote]
Sorry I misunderstood, english is not my native language :(

Spyro
29th April 2008, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by mark@Apr 28 2008, 11:46 PM
numbers, numbers - be - devil the number, a numbers just a number, it doesn't matter what the number is. Jean hit the nail right on the head when she said there's people on this website who would die for your pre x ray.

Take a look around the various galleries on this site and you will see what people have to put up with on a daily basis. Your happy with Schroth then fine, people on this and other sites are sceptical of Schroth and various practitioners who use the Schroth name to base there treatments on. If someone has enough disposable income to spend on the huge fees charged by these practitioners then fair play, you earned it, you spend it how you wish.

But and this is a big but, we have seen lots of false hope and downright lies peddled to people who are desperate to rid either themselves or there loved ones of this curse we all have to carry around and if i or many others can save at least one parent or member of this site not only there hard earned cash but vital time that could better be employed in seeking a more conventional form of treatment and stopping a curve progressing then i will and i wont apologise for it either.

Now you might read this post and think what dinasour. Thats not the case i have a very open mind. I do my research and explore sides of an argument before making a judgement but i have to live with my back everysingle day of the year and its not a pretty sight and thats just the cosmetics and not the pain i am constanty in. This is not a woo - is - me post theres plenty of members on this site with a lot more pain and a lot larger curves. But we have all one thing in common in that if you care to read our stories most of us have, at one time or another been let down very badly by members of the medical fraternity including Drs, Chyro's, Quaks and the loons out there practicing treatments for at best unsrcupulous gain at worst a misguided al perception that they are infact helping rather than making the problems worse and peddling false hope to some very vulnerable parents and patients.

Now i have prattled on for far too long so i will leave you with this, mines not a technical post, i don''t talk about numbers, degrees cobb angles etc etc etc. No i aint bothered if my curves more than a hundred or less than a hundred. Knowing that isnt gonna ease the pain i'm in on a daily basis or stop people staring at me cause they think i'm a freak. I havent got a clue what angle my curve is i don't paticulalry care or want to know what it is as i just said knowing a number isnt going to cure my pain or the ridicule i get. The only thing that will cure that is a titanium rod.

If you manage to read through these inane ramblings then go and have a look in the kyphosis forum, where you will see a number of photos in the gallery posted by some very brave members of this website. You will see all differed sizes and shape of curve. By the way i'm mark the one with the rather large hump on his back which i asume is my penance for having commited something unspeakable in a earlier life.

Have a great trip to Spain, i hope you get what you want out of it at a reaonable price and i look forward to reading about your stay in Spain

mark
Good post man.
Reading your posts I have realized that I'm a (censored) n00b in this world of back problems.