PDA

View Full Version : spine adjustment question


Kanish
8th February 2008, 09:27 PM
I have spinal issues which are similar to scoliosis, these being excessive Lordosis, (curve in lower back) excessive kyphosis ( curve in upperback) and excessive anterior pelvic tilt (tilts so my legs are behind my body). These issues i don't think are bad enough to require surgery but I am wondering if the excessive curves can be reduced permanently and to what degree (Permanent as long as i keep good posture and don't get too old). I would like to correct the problem without surgery or bracing (so doing various stretches and strengthening) As far as I Know I don't have any diseases or injuries that would cause the issues, so my condition might just be from poor posture or improper weight lifting (maybe genetic?). There are various articles on the web which describe how to improve the issues using various stretching and strengthening techniques and I would like to try some of these workouts but I have not found any convincing evidence that these workouts will actually work and adjust the spine. (there seems to be no testimonial evidence, no before and after pics, and there are even some articles which say the problems can not be corrected at all) So basically I am confused and want to know the truth about these conditions before I worry about addressing them, I would be very grateful for any info, but the more convincing the better.

Thank you. :niceone:

Amazed Jean
8th February 2008, 10:00 PM
Hello and welcome to SSO. Every case is different. Tell us a little more and we'll see if we can head you in the right direction. What can of doctor have you seen and what do you xrays look like? How old are you? How long have you had the back anomalies? Where do you live?

Kanish
8th February 2008, 10:38 PM
I am a 25/m I am not sure how long I have had the back abnormalities, I am thinking since 13-14ish, cause i remember people saying i had a big butt, at that time however i was not very concerned about my appearance. I have not seen a doctor about my issues (I do not currently have insurance) and as of now the issues don't cause me any noticeable physical pain, I am worried this could change in the future though. I am thinking the issue is likely genetic, cause my sister has scoliosis and kyphosis, and some other people in my family have similar spine curvature as me. Another question I have is: is my condition the result of various weak and tight muscles or are various muscles weak and tight/loose because of my genetic bone structure?, in which case would strengthening and stretching adjust the bone structure?

I am sorry, I know my condition isnt' too serious but it is one of them things that gets in my head an torments me !!

Amazed Jean
9th February 2008, 01:23 AM
It is common for scoliosis etc. to run in some families. Wether or not it will worsen ? My opinion is colored by the fact that I have never met or heard of anyone that didn't get worse. I understand about not having the money available. However i think you should make it a priority. You only get one body and it's your spine for pity's sake. Save up and go see a scoliosis specialist. You need to have a qualified doctor-check out your spine and tell you about possible lung and heart dysfunction which are real threats with untreated scoliosis.

jfkimberly
10th February 2008, 08:44 PM
Kanish, it sounds like you have a pretty good idea of what's going on with you, even without a formal diagnosis. As for the why of it, you've asked the million-dollar question. Without an orthopedic assessment to look at your spine, there's no way to know if yours is caused by a congenital defect in one or more of your vertebrae, or if it's idiopathic. I shy away from ever suggesting that a curve is attributable to "poor posture". That suggests to me that the patient is "lazy" and to blame for their condition. I don't think that any of us here are any lazier than ... well... a lot of people I've met who don't have scoliosis or kyphosis, etc.

However, in some cases, patients with mild curves have used stretching type exercises to help with their curves. I don't think you should expect to use exercise to cure yourself, but at the least, you can strengthen core muscles so that you can support your spine better and possibly prevent worsening of the condition. And I do believe that strengthening those muscles can help to alleviate pain, or in your case, prevent the onset of pain. But be very careful when starting any new training... I would urge you to find an experienced trainer to guide you in developing your exercises so you don't unwittingly injure the very muscles you're trying to strengthen.

And finally, Jean is right: Find the money and get yourself in for an evaluation. Call around, tell them you're cash-paying, and find out how much it will cost. And when you do finally pick someone, don't just go to the cheapest ortho guy you find... You'll end up paying for two appointments that way. In your phone calls, ask about their experience with adult kyphosis/lordosis. You'll spend a bit more on the one appointment, but it'll save you having to go on to a second or third appointment (which will end up costing more in the long run). Plus, you'll only have to have one set of xrays done, because the specialist will order them right the first time.

Writer
11th February 2008, 11:31 PM
Stretching and strengthening exercises do work to prevent progression and often partially reverse abnormal curvature, if properly selected and applied. See the posts about the Schroth method elsewhere on this forum. Forum member Sandman77 has recently reported about his good results in treatment with the method in Germany.

An orthopedist will be able to diagnose your condition, but will probably tell you that exercises don't work, since that is currently the orthodox position in the orthopedics profession. The Schroth method (physiotherapy) has been practiced in Germany for over 80 years and there are numerous publications about it in German and English.

Where are you -- UK, US? In the last couple years Schroth clinics have been established in both countries.

Amazed Jean
12th February 2008, 12:05 AM
Stretch and strengthen all you want I have yet to see solid proof that scoliosis has been at all reversed or progression stopped with these methodsl I don't know of any physician or any scoliosis surgeon who wants to do surgery if it can be prevented. They are in stead quite careful and conservative when suggesting surgery.

tonibunny
12th February 2008, 12:17 AM
It should be noted that Schroth therapy made Sandman feel better about himself, but his curve remained the same (well, he is fused, so it can't move anyway!) and lung function tests were not able to show any improvement.

Sealy
12th February 2008, 04:54 AM
Writer,

You obviously believe in the effectiveness of exercise with regards to scoliosis and this is excatly what I'm looking into right now. I've been using monkey bars on a daily basis with my daughter and I'm afraid to do much else for fear it will make things worse. I've read about side shift therapy and I think we're getting exactly that with the Spinecor brace. I came across the following two articles - unfortunately the articles are in Polish. Would you happen to know the doctors or how I could contact them? I assume they don't speak English.

Ortop Traumatol Rehabil. 2005 Feb 28;7(1):49-54.

Biodynamic method for 3-D correction of idiopathic scoliosis: a description of the method.
Dobosiewicz K, Durma≥a J, Kotwicki T.

The biodynamic method of three-dimensional correction of idiopathic scoliosis is based on the pathomechanics of idiopathic scoliosis, and consists in active, segmental, three-dimensional correction of spinal curvature. The course of action focuses in the vicinity of the apical vertebra. Proprioceptive facilitation is applied on the concave side of the curvature, and exteroceptive facilitation on the convex side. Correction, likewise proprio- or exteroceptive facilitation, is phase-locked with asymmetric respiratory movement, as well as with particular phases of the respiratory cycle. In the course of exercises three-planar movement is generated, opposite to the direction in which scoliosis is progressing. This method is in accordance with the state of the art of scoliosis pathomechanics. The method requires detailed training, and can then can be applied at home under periodic control by a physician and a physiotherapist. The method can be applied in tandem with a Cheneau brace, as well as in surgical pretreatment. A detailed description of the method of three-dimensional scoliosis treatment will be presented in this article.

PMID: 17675956 [PubMed - in process]



1: Ortop Traumatol Rehabil. 2005 Feb 28;7(1):28-35.

New conservative treatment of idiopathic scoliosis: effectiveness of therapy.

Karski T, Madej J, RehŠk L, Kokavec M, Karski J, Latalski M, Ka≥akucki J.

Background. This article provides basic information concerning a new conservative treatment for idiopathic scoliosis, with appropriate asymmetric flexion-rotation exercises and special redressing positions. Material and method. The analysis was based on 288 children with scoliosis and a control group of 268 children. The authors describe the most important exercises and provide a statistical analysis of treatment outcome in children with idiopathic scoliosis. Results and Conclusions. Early detection of the risk of scoliosis and correct therapy through new conservative treatment based on exercises make it possible not only to limit the progression of spinal deformity (61%), but also, in some cases of incipient scoliosis, to reduce the curvature (32%).

PMID: 17675953 [PubMed - in process]

RugbyLaura
12th February 2008, 05:13 PM
Hi Sealy,

Have you been advised to use monkey bars? Immy was a keen gymnast between the ages of 6 and 9. She spent many hours per week hanging from bars in the gym. She also spent many hours playing on monkey bars in the park and our garden. It was during this period that her Scoliosis was first noticed and then rapidly progressed.

I am assuming that the bar work did not cause the Scoliosis and I don't know whether it slowed the progression, but I do know that it didn't prevent it!

Immy has also always had extremely erect posture, lazyness has played no part in her problem.

Kanish, has anyone in your family with your particular set of issues gone on to experience pain? Does it torment you because of your appearance? I wish more was known about how to treat this kind of thing.... we're all finding our own way but surely exercise can't be bad?? Just be wary of those out to make a quick buck out of your problems!

Sealy
12th February 2008, 05:53 PM
That's interesting. :-D There are so many theories, it's difficult. The article "Regression of Juvenile Scoliosis" in the downloads section has completely changed my views on the progression of scoliosis. It ties in with everything I've read on the bio mechanics of scoliosis and also the vicious cycle hypothesis and how stretching the ligaments on the concave side is actually beneficial. The doctor advocates hanging from bars on a daily basis and that's what we've chosen to do. Right or wrong. I've contacted the Polish doctors about getting permission to post the translated articles but I'm still waiting on a response. I don't want to get into trouble with copyright laws. I'm afraid they may not understand me.


BTW...how are things? :kiss:

RugbyLaura
12th February 2008, 06:50 PM
Things are great thanks! Apart from the dreaded brace :P Half term here at the mo & with all the different activities it's brace on, brace off, brace on, brace off. It's driving Immy mad but is the best option currently. Hope you're all well. Is Deidre enjoying the monkey bars? Will upload some photos for you one of these days.....

Missing you on the other forum :cry:

xx

- Sorry everyone, went horribly off topic - will stop now :ignore:

Kanish
13th February 2008, 01:51 AM
Thank you all very much for the advice.., I now realize the importance of seeing a specialist and I will also look into the Schroth method and see what happens, thank you.

Sealy
13th February 2008, 02:35 PM
Awww.....Laura, you're a sweetie! :squeeze: Deirdre loves hanging from the bars. She gets up there and lifts up her legs, does the splits etc. etc. She has fun. One day she'll be doing chin ups.

caro
13th February 2008, 08:56 PM
Kanish, I am going to Scoliosis SOS for 4 weeks of Shroth in July so hope to be able to report back to you in the summer.

Bohungus
17th February 2008, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by jfkimberly@Feb 10 2008, 07:44 PM
Kanish, it sounds like you have a pretty good idea of what's going on with you, even without a formal diagnosis. As for the why of it, you've asked the million-dollar question. Without an orthopedic assessment to look at your spine, there's no way to know if yours is caused by a congenital defect in one or more of your vertebrae, or if it's idiopathic. I shy away from ever suggesting that a curve is attributable to "poor posture". That suggests to me that the patient is "lazy" and to blame for their condition. I don't think that any of us here are any lazier than ... well... a lot of people I've met who don't have scoliosis or kyphosis, etc.

.
It should be noted that whenever someone refers to poor posture as being the cause of any scoliotic curve that it's not the person's fault.

It's not because of laziness. It has everything to do with the fact that every one of us is different and therefore posture will be different. We think it may be caused by proprioceptive nerves in your spine that think you are out of position. They then try to overcompensate for what they perceie to be out of position and then activate muscles to move you back into "correction".

That's the closest way I know how to explain it.

One of my friends is currently being treated for "Military Neck". What that means is he has lost the lordotic curve in his cervical spine and has a scoliotic curve of about 20 degrees.

Without correcting the cervical curve, his scoliosis can't be treated.

So far he's doing really well.

Bohungus
27th February 2008, 03:43 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

This is an abstract from what we're doing at my college. We have the 1st research fascility in the US related to scoliosis and chiropractic care.

It has a lot to do with proprioception and biomechanics. We're meeting with really good results. We're about to publish another study. We're at 90 for 90.

Patients who do not exercise at home will cheerfully be referred to another facility where they don't care.

jfkimberly
27th February 2008, 04:22 PM
Your link didn't lead to an abstract. Try again?

Bohungus
27th February 2008, 04:40 PM
On pubmed you can look it up by morningstar woggon but here is the actual study.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2474/5/32

GillyG
27th February 2008, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Bohungus@Feb 27 2008, 03:40 PM
On pubmed you can look it up by morningstar woggon but here is the actual study.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2474/5/32
22 patients (down to 19) is a very small statistical sample to be extracting any meaningful results from...

Bohungus
27th February 2008, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by GillyG+Feb 27 2008, 05:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (GillyG @ Feb 27 2008, 05:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bohungus@Feb 27 2008, 03:40 PM
On pubmed you can look it up by morningstar woggon but here is the actual study.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2474/5/32
22 patients (down to 19) is a very small statistical sample to be extracting any meaningful results from... [/b][/quote]
Agreed, but we're about to publish 90 for 90 results.

We're just starting out, and we're meeting with great results. WOOT!

I'm learning as I go and I'll relay what I learn as the weeks and months go by.

Don't forget, I'm your voice when I go back to my peers and professors.

I'm on your side and we're doing everything we can.

Thanks for the time.

GillyG
27th February 2008, 08:44 PM
Well, good look with it all. It will certainly make for interesting reading. :-)