PDA

View Full Version : Osteopathy



Sealy
4th June 2007, 05:30 PM
Hey all,

I've made an appointment with a local osteopath that specializes in
pediatrics and infants. This particular doctor is an instructor at the
local Osteopathic school so she must know what she's doing. Our
appointment is scheduled for July 9 and I'll let you all know how it
goes! I'm planning to check in with drs Rivard and Coillard to make
sure it's okay and I'm not doing more harm. I'm pretty sure
osteopathy doesn't involve back cracking because if it does I'm out of
there! I don't know why I feel as though I'm treading in uncharted
waters...it could be there are no studies to comfort me.

The following abstract pushed me in this direction....


1: Stud Health Technol Inform. 2002;91:365-8. Links

Reversal of the signs and symptoms of moderately severe idiopathic scoliosis in response to physical methods.


Hawes MC, Brooks WJ.
Department of Plant Pathology, University of Arizona, Tucson AZ 85721, USA.

This report describes improved signs and symptoms of previously untreated symptomatic spinal deformity in an adult female diagnosed with moderately severe thoracic scoliosis at the age of .7 years. Current treatment initiated at the age of forty included massage therapy, manual traction, ischemic pressure, and comprehensive manipulative medicine (CMM). A left-right chest circumference inequity was reduced by >10 cm, in correlation with improved appearance of the ribcage deformity and a 40% reduction in magnitude of Cobb angle, which had been stable for 30 years. The changes occurred gradually over an eight-year period, with the most rapid improvement occurring during two periods when CMM was employed.

PMID: 15457757 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

gerbo
4th June 2007, 06:29 PM
what ever next?? SI? Structural becoming your best mate? What's the world coming to.. :P :P :P

Sealy
4th June 2007, 06:46 PM
Gerbo,

You know you'll *always* be my sweetheart :kiss: A lot of what Structural said regarding SI made a lot of sense to me. I'm just scared right now given recent developments with a particular young girl we both know and I think this has spurred me to action.

tonibunny
4th June 2007, 07:28 PM
I'm very surprised to see you taking this course of action too Sealy! :joke: But, seriously, so long as it can't do any harm and people aren't being ripped off, I think certain "alternative" treatments are worth trying alongside conventional treatments. Perhaps we ought to look at them as "complementary" therapies rather than "alternative" ones?

Good luck! :squeeze:

gerbo
4th June 2007, 07:46 PM
i think that as a scared and insecure parent who has gone through hell and back, you are perfectly entitled to appear a bit illogical at times. and the discussion with structural was always about general principles (on what you "sell to a patient as practitioner, or what claims you make or don't make"") and not about how you as an individual parent want to treat your child.

If recent developments have made you scared, just imagine how i must be feeling, as Laura is so much similar age (and background)

Still, i firmly believe you have very little reason to be worried. I think that the biggest driver for a spine to grow into a bigger curve is an actually existing curve. (assymmetrical pressure on growth plates, this is not my theory at all and suggested by many!!). This situation doesn't exist in Deirdre, so really, you should be all right!!

but; so understand you wanting another therapist to be involved! (if only to keep an eye on things whilst you are waiting for the next appointment)

Let us know how you get on!!

gerbo

RugbyLaura
4th June 2007, 08:33 PM
Hi Sealy,

It's worth checking out everything. Let us know how it goes. For what it's worth, I went to an osteopath when I was a teenager and it did involve clicking bones, particularly in my neck & shoulder area. It was not pleasant! I only went a few times and it seemed to make no difference. However things may have changed, it was a (very) long time ago! - This was not for Scoliosis but for "onesidedness".

Laura

Sealy
4th June 2007, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by gerbo@Jun 4 2007, 11:46 AM
i think that as a scared and insecure parent who has gone through hell and back, you are perfectly entitled to appear a bit illogical at times.....
Say What????!!! :shock: :rofl: :D

I think Structural's following quote did it for me:



"In the case of Celia&#39;s daughter... I hope things continue to go smoothly, I really do. "<span style='color:blue'>(THIS IS WHERE I BEGIN TO PANIC) :hammer: HE THEN GOES ON TO SAY..... "But do keep in mind Gerbo that her 60 degree curve was serial casted at a very young age... when vertebral facets are very mobile and time hasn&#39;t yet severely deformed the vertebrae themselves. The real test is going to be the growth spurts... . Then we&#39;ll have a better idea if forcing curves back without doing anything whatsoever to address or discover the potential cause was futile or not. Remember, the cause hasn&#39;t been acknowledged, only the symptom of it. In the x-rays she posted earlier you can visibly see the torsion in the spine and pelvis, despite the fact that it is vertically straightened.... that would make me curious as a parent. And it would be a shame to look back 15 years from now and think to ones self, &#39;If only I had done something in addition to the bracing to attempt to discover and treat the cause instead of relying solely on force, luck and wishful thinking.... and studies&#39;."</span>

Sealy
4th June 2007, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by RugbyLaura@Jun 4 2007, 12:33 PM
Hi Sealy,

It&#39;s worth checking out everything. Let us know how it goes. For what it&#39;s worth, I went to an osteopath when I was a teenager and it did involve clicking bones, particularly in my neck & shoulder area. It was not pleasant&#33; I only went a few times and it seemed to make no difference. However things may have changed, it was a (very) long time ago&#33; - This was not for Scoliosis but for "onesidedness".

Laura
Laura,

Thanks for letting me know about the clicking part&#33;&#33; If I don&#39;t feel comfortable with the whole thing, I won&#39;t go back. I&#39;m waiting for a call back from Dr. Rivard to see what his views on Osteopathy are and whether it&#39;s a contraindication to the Spinecor brace. I&#39;ll let you all know what he says.

Sealy
4th June 2007, 09:23 PM
Toni,

It does seem a bit irrational of me, doesn&#39;t it? Emotions can override any kind of logical thinking at times and right now fear is taking hold.

GillyG
4th June 2007, 11:37 PM
Hi Sealy,

I don&#39;t really know very much about osteopathy, but I thought it was quite a &#39;forceful&#39; technique of manual manipulation? I would imagine that could lead to a fair few &#39;cracks&#39;&#33; :P

I don&#39;t blame you for wanting to try anything and everything for your daughter (what parent wouldn&#39;t?), but I don&#39;t understand all the references to &#39;Structural&#39; and &#39;SI&#39;.

I hope everything goes well, keep us posted.

Gilly xx

tonibunny
4th June 2007, 11:45 PM
Please, try not to be scared Sealy.....Deirdre&#39;s spine is basically almost totally straight, and I have no doubt it will continue to grow straight even through her growth spurts. I agree with the theory Gerbo mentioned, that there won&#39;t be assymetrical pressure on her growth plates, so she should be OK.

Keep smiling :squeeze: You know Min Mehta&#39;s serial casting has straightened kids who have remained straight.

Sealy
5th June 2007, 04:48 AM
Toni/Gerbo,

Thanks for bringing me back to reality&#33; I&#39;m just a nervous wreck right now.... :woe:


Gilly,

This is what I found on the internet regarding osteopathic manipulation. I think it&#39;s just a glorified massage. :hammer: Structural is a member on another forum and SI stands for Structural Integration.

An Overview of Osteopathic Manipulation Techniques

The spectrum of osteopathic manipulation techniques focused on the principal that body structure and function are dependent on one another. When structure is altered via the musculoskeletal system, abnormalities occur in other body systems. This, in turn, can produce restriction of motion, tenderness, tissue changes and asymmetry.

Following are some of the manipulation procedures most commonly used by osteopathic physicians to diagnose and treat somatic dysfunction:

Hands - On Contact
The value of the placing of hands on a patient is universally acknowledged by health professionals. This essential component of the doctor-patient relationship has a great deal to do with the patient&#39;s well being, whether he or she suffers from a cold or a terminal disease. When the DO examines a patient by auscultation of the chest or palpation of the abdomen or spine, the treatment already has begun.

Soft - Tissue Technique
This procedure is commonly applied to the musculature surrounding the spine, and consists of a rhythmic stretching, deep pressure and traction. Its purpose is to move tissue fluids (edema) and to relax hypertonic muscles and myofascial (fibrous tissue) layers associated with somatic dysfunction.

Myofascial Release
This procedure is designed to treat primarily the myofascial structures. In the use of direct myofascial release treatment (MRT) a restrictive barrier is engaged for the myofascial tissues; the tissue is loaded with a constant force until release occurs. In treating with indirect MRT the dysfunctional tissues are guided along a path of least resistance until free movement is achieved.

Cranial Osteopathy
Inside the skull or cranium there is a covering over the brain, the dura, that continues down inside the spine to the tailbone or sacrum, protecting and supporting the central nervous system. This central nervous system controls the functioning of every organ, muscle and nerve in the body. Cranial Osteopathy is a systematic approach to patient diagnosis and treatment utilizing the body&#39;s inherent, third wave impulse, emanating from the central nervous system and the fluctuation of cerebrospinal fluid. This is called Cranial Rhythmic Impulse (CRI). This gentle, manual technique uses the CRI to treat the whole person, emphasizing the head and spinal regions.

Lymphatic Technique
This manual procedure is designed to promote circulation of the lymphatic fluids and can be used to relieve upper and lower respiratory infections. One technique is pressure applied with the physician&#39;s hands to the prone patient&#39;s upper anterior chest wall. When the force applied to the chest reaches its maximum on expiration, the physician&#39;s hands are removed suddenly. This increases negative pressure of the chest to assist the body&#39;s respiratory mechanism to move lymphatic fluids.

Thrust Technique
In this form of manipulation, the physician applies a high velocity/low amplitude force to restore specific joint motion. With such a technique, the joint regains its normal range of motion and resets neural reflexes. The procedure reduces and/or completely nullifies the physical signs of somatic dysfunction tissue changes, asymmetry, restriction of motion and tenderness.

Muscle Energy Technique
In this manual technique the patient is directed to use his or her muscles from a precise position and in a specific direction against counter force applied by the physician. The purpose is to restore motion, decrease muscle/tissue changes and modify asymmetry of somatic dysfunction.

CounterstrainThe counterstrain technique is a manual procedure in which the patient is moved passively away from the restricted motion barrier, towards the position of greatest comfort. At this point, passive, asymptomatic strain is induced. This technique is used for relief of somatic dysfunctions that are too acute or too delicate to treat with other procedures.


The American Academy of Osteopathy is ready to answer your questions about the profession and its special contributions to US health care. Please contact:


American Academy of Osteopathy
3500 DePauw Boulevard, Suite 1080
Indianapolis, Indiana 46268-1136
(317) 879-1881

The above copyright 1992 American Academy of Osteopathy, 3500 DePauw Boulevard, Suite 1080, Indianapolis, Indiana 46268-1136

gerbo
5th June 2007, 09:36 AM
Celia, celia, sometimes I feel we need to sit you down and really have a word with you. I have been thinking about things since yesterday and really feel you are drawing the wrong conclusions from the wrong premise.

First of all, I understand completely where you are coming from and by all means, as long as it won&#39;t do any harm, and it makes you feel better; go ahead&#33; (I cannot exclude I would make similar steps in the future)

However; what do you expect the osteopath to do; your one example was a mature woman with a large curve and I could some logic there in an approach which helps to mobilize a very stiff and immobile part of the spine and in conjunction with posture adjustments this is bound to make some difference.

You just cannot compare this to the situation deirdre is in. To all intends and purposes she got a straight spine, which i assume moves freely in all directions, which has the additional support of a brace which keeps her in her place, so there is just nothing there for an osteopath to work with.

Also you should know better than me what the prognosis of a resolved infantile scoliosis is, which in your case should even be better as you are continuing to support deirdre&#39;s spine (that&#39;s not an universal approach, is it??)

Structural is very devious in his postulation of this "underlying cause" (which only he can see) and which is just waiting to come out and bend a straight back into a curve as soon as the support of the brace is removed. Ofcourse, he can somehow magically remove this underlying cause and take that risk of progression away. (if he is not saying that, he is at least suggesting that) In a way he creates fear, which is the second weapon (after false hope) in the armoury of the alternative practitioner and this is another powerful force which attracts clients to undergo these socalled miracle cures.

As I said before, i do believe in the vicious cycle theory where a curved spine will deteriorate independently of any causal factor just because of the assymmetric forces on the spine caused and enhanced by the actual curve. No other underlying factors which conspire to do this; pure mechanics. This does not apply to deirdre; her spine is (kept) straight&#33;&#33;

Again, by all means, have a go, and have a good look what he/she does, and learn from it, but stop being scared and a nervous wreck; enjoy what you have achieved and get pleasure out of deirdre rather than worrying whether or not at a future time something might happen to her. deirdre deserves to be a source of pleasure and pride and life&#39;s fulfilment and not a source of worry and anxiety, specially if this anxiety is brought on by some crooked practitioner on some internetforum.

remember though, we&#39;re with you allthe way....

:squeeze: :squeeze:

RugbyLaura
5th June 2007, 11:30 AM
Sealy,

I can only imagine how shocked you must feel at what has happened to your very good friend&#39;s daughter - I am shocked and have only known of her for about a month. This is bound to make you question your approach and this moment of insecurity has been cleverly jumped on by someone trying to make a case for THEIR approach. Keep reminding yourself that Deidre&#39;s case is completely different and that her brace IS keeping her straight. You are not sitting on your hands and you never have.

Keep strong, you have been an inspiration to me.

Laura

ps Gerbo - huge respect to you&#33;

gerbo
5th June 2007, 11:54 AM
thanks Laura, I think this is clear case of "we are all in it together", same fears, worries and anxieties but varieing and fluctuating levels of rationality, common sense and feeling strong. At any time;whoever feels strongest supports the other(s). we all have had and will have our turns......

Sealy
5th June 2007, 05:31 PM
Hey gang,

I got a message back from dr. Rivard&#39;s office regarding Osteopathy and it&#39;s a big resounding NO. I&#39;m cancelling the appointment with the osteopath. Common sense will prevail in the end and as usual you&#39;re all right on target&#33; :niceone:

GillyG
5th June 2007, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by gerbo@Jun 5 2007, 09:54 AM
I think this is clear case of "we are all in it together", same fears, worries and anxieties but varieing and fluctuating levels of rationality, common sense and feeling strong. At any time;whoever feels strongest supports the other(s). we all have had and will have our turns......
Gerbo, I think you&#39;re amazing&#33; What a lovely way of reminding us all what this forum is all about :D

I know I don&#39;t have a child in a brace but I still keep a watchful eye on my two boys and I like to keep up with how the rest of you are managing your kids conditions and how they are all doing.

Sealy, it sounds like you&#39;ve made the right decision to me. From what I can gather, your daughters curve is being very well managed at the moment. I think you should congratulate yourself for being such a caring parent and try to stop worrying :hammer:

Hugs to you all, especilly the young &#39;uns&#33;

:squeeze: :squeeze: :squeeze: :squeeze: :squeeze: :squeeze:

Gilly xx

P.S. Sealy, thanks for taking the time to explain about &#39;SI&#39; etc.

Amazed Jean
5th June 2007, 07:53 PM
Sealy, Now that was fun right? Isn&#39;t that what Mom&#39;s are about? We give ourselves all kinds of grief that we may have missed or may miss something to make life better for our kids. Sometimes we drive ourselves crazy trying to find any little thing to make the slightest difference in their lives and it isn&#39;t until later we find that were just being a Mom who is being a Mom and life was happening to our kid just like it&#39;s supposed to. I would really like to tell you that we get older and wiser and out kids grow up and we are all better. Wrong&#33;&#33; My darling daughter is 30 years old and I am still doing it. So pull on your best Mom jeans or big girl panties and get ready. You are going to be doing this for a long, long time. I&#39;m sending you some Mom love just for you and some hugs&#33;&#33;

Sealy
6th June 2007, 05:00 AM
Originally posted by gerbo@Jun 5 2007, 01:36 AM
. To all intends and purposes she got a straight spine, which i assume moves freely in all directions, which has the additional support of a brace which keeps her in her place, so there is just nothing there for an osteopath to work with.

Also you should know better than me what the prognosis of a resolved infantile scoliosis is, which in your case should even be better as you are continuing to support deirdre&#39;s spine (that&#39;s not an universal approach, is it??)

Structural is very devious in his postulation of this "underlying cause" (which only he can see) and which is just waiting to come out and bend a straight back into a curve as soon as the support of the brace is removed. Ofcourse, he can somehow magically remove this underlying cause and take that risk of progression away. (if he is not saying that, he is at least suggesting that) In a way he creates fear, which is the second weapon (after false hope) in the armoury of the alternative practitioner and this is another powerful force which attracts clients to undergo these socalled miracle cures.


Exactly&#33;&#33;&#33; What cause is there??? She has idiopathic scoliosis&#33; Her curve is virtually straight with the Spinecor and consequently no asymmetric loading on the growth plates. This whole thing is sooooo ridiculous, I can&#39;t believe I fell for it&#33; :oops:


Jean,

Moms always find things to worry about :D


Thanks Gilly&#33; :squeeze:

jennie
6th June 2007, 04:01 PM
Hi
I would like to add to all this that Emily has seen an osteopath since she was a baby. When she was born she had a cardiac arrest after 10 mins and pretty much remained lifeless for the first 4 months, like a floppy rabbit, with all the staff.. drs, nurses , physios saying it was pointless doing anything, until we went to the osteopath, who was the first person to say anything positive at all. He brought her back to life is all I can say, within a couple of visits. it was like an unlocking.. he also rang Emilys consultant to say she needed bracing immediately when her back first went , not in a few months,and he has never cracked any bones or joints. When her neck twangs and gets stuck he manipulates it back, the drs just give her pain relief, with no further advice,,, He has never suggested any other way of treating em other than bracing and surgery asap...Of course i feel you could never prove she wouldn&#39;t have woken up anyway but doing something positive has been enormously important for us, hope this makes some sense. I&#39;m sure I used to write more coherently before i had kids&#33;

jennie
6th June 2007, 04:02 PM
Hi
I would like to add to all this that Emily has seen an osteopath since she was a baby. When she was born she had a cardiac arrest after 10 mins and pretty much remained lifeless for the first 4 months, like a floppy rabbit, with all the staff.. drs, nurses , physios saying it was pointless doing anything, until we went to the osteopath, who was the first person to say anything positive at all. He brought her back to life is all I can say, within a couple of visits. it was like an unlocking.. he also rang Emilys consultant to say she needed bracing immediately when her back first went , not in a few months,and he has never cracked any bones or joints. When her neck twangs and gets stuck he manipulates it back, the drs just give her pain relief, with no further advice,,, He has never suggested any other way of treating em other than bracing and surgery asap...Of course i feel you could never prove she wouldn&#39;t have woken up anyway but doing something positive has been enormously important for us, hope this makes some sense. I&#39;m sure I used to write more coherently before i had kids&#33;

Sealy
6th June 2007, 05:26 PM
Hi Jennie,

I think I was more coherent before kids too&#33;&#33;&#33; :-D

I consider this whole area of "alternative medicine" not as black or white but rather a grey zone. I could see how osteopathy or massage could help with scoliosis as an adjunct to bracing in a growing child. In Deirdre&#39;s case, it may not be an issue at all. However, I&#39;m not going to entirely rule it out if her situation necessitates it in the future.

GillyG
6th June 2007, 06:28 PM
Jennie, I&#39;m so pleased for you that your daughter had such a positive experience. It just goes to show that there are definitely some cases which benefit from these alternative treatments. However, in Sealy&#39;s case I think it would have been a waste of money as her daughter is very stable in her brace and further intervention seems unnecessary.

Take care,

Gilly xx

Amazed Jean
6th June 2007, 08:06 PM
Being coherent is highly overated. Being a parent means being crazy. What&#39;s that saying? Insanity is hereditary - you get it from your kids and I might add that while the kids are making you insane, you will add layers of craziness all on your own. It&#39;s bound to be tied to ovaries or something.